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Barbell Deadlift increase rate

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Thanks a lot!
Always such nice support on this forum.

@Steve Freides
You're a world record holder, so your insights are always appreciated.

I admit that technique could have led to my back problems. Even though I learned how to do DL in the past I didn't frequently DL for a long time - use it or lose it...
I think I'd now prefer doing 5 singles instead of a set of 5. I didn't bounce and instead went like this: rep -> 2-3sec for resetting -> rep -> ... until I completed 5.
Rep -> 30-60sec rest -> rep -> ... allows for better technique IMO. My first rep of every set was always the best.
So especially the DDD seems to be better suited.
 
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Kettlebelephant said:
Thanks a lot!
Always such nice support on this forum.

@Steve Freides
You're a world record holder...
Click to expand...
Only because no one else bothers to show up in my age and weight class. My weights are good enough to win local meets but that's really about it. The numbers in my age and weight class really should be higher.

But I do train and I do show up, so I get and happily accept those records.

-S-
 
@Kettlebelephant , how did your press of choice progress during the PTTP? Or did you totally drop the progression when your back started aching?

Also, when you mentioned that "barbell work made me stiff", like in the carryover thread as well, have you considered whether it is the heavy intensity/volume/frequency of the PTTP cycle you did, instead of the tool itself, that made you stiff?
 
Kettlebelephant said:
Update:
I've completed 14 weeks of PTTP/S&S split and honestly I'm glad it's over. Got a bit mentally exhausted at the end for reasons I'm going to state later in my post.
I didn't hit 230Kg, but very very close...227,5Kg!
Tested today and 225Kg almost didn't go up. I really wanted to join the 500lbs club and 225Kg is "just" 496lbs...
So I rested for a full 10min and put 227,5Kg (501.5lbs) on the bar and tried that. Went up, but my friend said it was really ugly.
It wasn't my smartest move for sure, but I really wanted that lift and thought of is as a kind of competition lift -> a true 1RM.
I wouldn't base a routine on that 1RM though :D
A 1RM with 100% technical form integrity would be more in the 210-215KG area.

Originally I wanted to continue until the end of the year, but ditched that for 2 reasons.
First, I felt that mental exhaustion ramping up and therefore decided to not extend my 3 month gym membership, which ended last week and I don't have access to barbells at home.
Second, the mental exhaustion itself. It's not that I dreaded my workouts, because I still like DLs, but the barbell work made me stiff. I had to ramp up my mobility work significantly to stay as mobile as I was before.
The S&S weeks became a real relief between the PTTP weeks and I kept them light (28-32Kg).

I think PTTP is a good program, but maybe not the best fit for my level.
@Steve Freides, @Jared_G_85, @Antti & @Alexander Halford told me that PTTP is probably not maintainable at such weighs and better for beginners (@Antti mentioned the 300lbs barbell kit before) and not the best for someone DLing close to 500lbs. It's not like I didn't want to hear your concerns, but some things you just need to experience first hand :)
Also I wouldn't start at 75% of 1RM like I did. 60-65% seems a lot more reasonable.

I got sidelined two times. Once because of a flu like cold, which hit me during my first S&S block and then my lower back acted up during the second PTTP block.
I dealt with this by using a belt for some of my lifts and instead of continueing to add weight to my military presses I did some light ones followed by bent press practice.
No back problems after that.

Would I recommend it to others?
Yes.
Even though I had some minor personal issues with it, it still delivered.
If you don't have a special date (e.g. a meet where you want to lift xx Kg) it's probably a lot better, because you can start lower (~60% 1RM) and don't have to ramp up the weight as aggressively as I did (last fridays session was 200Kg, starting weight in June was 150Kg).
For those who dislike the monotony of S&S or PTTP alone it might be a good fit to keep things fresh.
I'd say to go with it for at least 8 weeks to get an idea whether you like it or not.

Will I repeat it in the future?
Probably not.
It showed me again that I like KBs much, much more than barbells. I really looked forward to my S&S weeks.
Also KBs are a lot more convenient, because I don't have to go to the gym. Yes, I could buy a barbell set, but that's a money and space issue.
I mentioned the stiffness issue before and I simply don't have that problem with KB or bodyweight work.
Joining the 500-club is something I can scratch off the bucket list and if I ever feel that I want to further increase that number I wouldn't go for PTTP, but probably a PlanStrong or similar routine.
Click to expand...

@Kettlebelephant

Congrats! 500 pound is nice and round number.

Looks like you've made it "From Calf to Bull" after all!
 
@Kettlebelephant
Congratulations on making that 500lb lift.

A little late, but one suggestion for implementing PTTP at higher poundages (kilogramages?) is to use a structured wave cycle with bigger jumps between sessions and smaller jumps between waves. So, for example, if you use a 4 steps forward/3 steps back structure, you might start lighter (more like 60-65%), add 5kg or 7.5kg each session (at this level, I usually recommend 15lbs, if using lbs.), but reset the next wave starting 2.5kg heavier than the previous wave.

This way, you get a nice rhythm of easy to moderate/moderately challenging sessions in each wave as you gradually bump up the overall load. It ends up feeling like a heavy/light/medium program within the parameters of PTTP, and cycles don't end up being as much of a death march at high percentages toward the end.
 
Antti said:
how did your press of choice progress during the PTTP? Or did you totally drop the progression when your back started aching?
Click to expand...
I didn't progress it anymore and went just by feel. A bit Easy Strength like, but I stayed in the 50-75% area and dropped reps in favor of bent press practice and on some days even completely dropped the military press and only did the BnPs.
I didn't test the MP afterwards, but can press the 40Kg KB, which is something I've never done before. 36 was my highest before that.

Antti said:
Also, when you mentioned that "barbell work made me stiff", like in the carryover thread as well, have you considered whether it is the heavy intensity/volume/frequency of the PTTP cycle you did, instead of the tool itself, that made you stiff?
Click to expand...
It's most likely the tool. I have done weeks of SS, GSLP and 531 before and always had the same experience.

To make it easier to understand what I mean by "stiff":
I use my mobility before I started training at all as my baseline. Back then I could wake up, step out of bed and just do a squat that was a good bit below parallel and on a toe touch I needed ~3 inches to touch the ground. That's the baseline.
After starting to train with barbells I couldn't do that anymore. After waking up my squat stopped at about parallel, I lost about an inch on my toe touch and I just felt less mobile overall. Also I had to extend my warm-ups to really feel ready for my sessions, because I had the underlying feeling that otherwise I could pull a muscle or something. Luckily that never happend, but the feeling was there. With daily stretching and foamrolling I could get back to baseline.
I accepted that, but when I switched to KBs (TGU, swing, GSquat) after some time my mobility improved. The squat was almost a#@-to-grass and the toe touch was just shy of touching the floor, despite completely stopping stretching and foamrolling. Overall I felt more "jumpy" (can't come up with another word) and even though I did them, I didn't need warm-ups to feel ready for the session.
So when I started this PTTP/S&S split my mobility decreased again. Not as bad as before, but the BnPs and the S&S blocks helped to keep it in check I think. I still needed foamrolling though.
It also came up in a conversation I had with Geoff Neupert. His respons to mentioning that PTTP made me stiff again was:
"Yup, that tends to happen with the barbell work. You have to add in extra mobility work, etc. to keep from locking up."

I don't think that everyone has the same experience though. You have to take into consideration that I'm tall and have mild versions of kyphosis and scoliosis. They don't have a noticable affect on me in the way that I can't do certain things or something like that, but it's still highly possible that they indeed affect my training. Bodyweight and KBs allow me to move more naturally in the sense of more naturally for my specific body. The barbell locks you up in certain ways and maybe that doesn't work so well with my body.
We know that when your body senses injury it tends to tighten up muscles to prevent injury. For example a lot of the lower back issues where the muscles get so tight that it hurts. That's your body protecting your spine.
So the stiffness I feel after BB work maybe is just my body telling me that I went too deep, too heavy, too wide or whatever.
 
Kettlebelephant said:
I didn't progress it anymore and went just by feel. A bit Easy Strength like, but I stayed in the 50-75% area and dropped reps in favor of bent press practice and on some days even completely dropped the military press and only did the BnPs.
I didn't test the MP afterwards, but can press the 40Kg KB, which is something I've never done before. 36 was my highest before that.


It's most likely the tool. I have done weeks of SS, GSLP and 531 before and always had the same experience.

To make it easier to understand what I mean by "stiff":
I use my mobility before I started training at all as my baseline. Back then I could wake up, step out of bed and just do a squat that was a good bit below parallel and on a toe touch I needed ~3 inches to touch the ground. That's the baseline.
After starting to train with barbells I couldn't do that anymore. After waking up my squat stopped at about parallel, I lost about an inch on my toe touch and I just felt less mobile overall. Also I had to extend my warm-ups to really feel ready for my sessions, because I had the underlying feeling that otherwise I could pull a muscle or something. Luckily that never happend, but the feeling was there. With daily stretching and foamrolling I could get back to baseline.
I accepted that, but when I switched to KBs (TGU, swing, GSquat) after some time my mobility improved. The squat was almost a#@-to-grass and the toe touch was just shy of touching the floor, despite completely stopping stretching and foamrolling. Overall I felt more "jumpy" (can't come up with another word) and even though I did them, I didn't need warm-ups to feel ready for the session.
So when I started this PTTP/S&S split my mobility decreased again. Not as bad as before, but the BnPs and the S&S blocks helped to keep it in check I think. I still needed foamrolling though.
It also came up in a conversation I had with Geoff Neupert. His respons to mentioning that PTTP made me stiff again was:
"Yup, that tends to happen with the barbell work. You have to add in extra mobility work, etc. to keep from locking up."

I don't think that everyone has the same experience though. You have to take into consideration that I'm tall and have mild versions of kyphosis and scoliosis. They don't have a noticable affect on me in the way that I can't do certain things or something like that, but it's still highly possible that they indeed affect my training. Bodyweight and KBs allow me to move more naturally in the sense of more naturally for my specific body. The barbell locks you up in certain ways and maybe that doesn't work so well with my body.
We know that when your body senses injury it tends to tighten up muscles to prevent injury. For example a lot of the lower back issues where the muscles get so tight that it hurts. That's your body protecting your spine.
So the stiffness I feel after BB work maybe is just my body telling me that I went too deep, too heavy, too wide or whatever.
Click to expand...

36kg to 40kg is not a bad improvement in KB MP by any means, especially if you didn't really concentrate on such a movement for long. Good job on that front as well.

I understand you now when it comes to your stiffness. Good that you have found out what works for you and what doesn't.
 
What @Geoff Chafe said - what you experienced is normal, IMHO. I've got a meet coming up in about 6 weeks - I'm stronger than usual but squatting deep is more of a challenge, so I just do it more often to stay on top of things.

-S-
 
@Kettlebelephant Thanks for sharing your experience. A 27.5 kg increase in 5 months for a 200 kg deadlifter is darn good (yes, I'm an American you is comfortable thinking in kilos, it was all that d*mn Olympic lifting). It's also interesting that you made this progress using PTTP and S&S instead of a fancy program.

I also agree with @Geoff Chafe about the cause of your stiffness, although for you it good be a combination of things. I've also read that taking time off after lots of heavy training also causes some stiffness because your body "thinks" it should be lifting heavy and "prepares" itself for lifting heavy by tensing the muscles. I've also thought flexibility was overrated and I have what I call sport-specific flexibility. I struggle to pick something up off the floor and can't touch my toes (a combination of general stiffness and a bad back) but I can easily do overhead squats which supposedly require lots of flexibility. The human body never ceases to amaze me.
 
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