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Kettlebell Deadlift options

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SJT

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Hello all,
I'm looking for opinions on heavy deadlifts. The lower body part of my program currently consists of:

-Goblet squats
-Kettlebell swings
-Single leg contra-lateral deadlifts
-Double KB front squats
-Double KB deadlifts

My heaviest bells are 32kg, and I use one in each hand on the double KB deadlifts. This results in a close to bodyweight deadlift (140lbs of bells vs 150lbs of me).

FWIW-I'm of the opinion that power is more important than strength as we age based on my reading of studies and try to program accordingly.

At 44, I'm not looking for a huge dead, however, I'm wondering what may be left on the table without it. Opinions please!
 
Do you have access to a barbell, and/or heavier kettlebells?

Is there anything about your physical existence that is currently different than you would like it to be, that you think might be affected by changing your current training, such as by adding more/heavier deadlifts?

I hear what you're saying, "not looking for a huge dead, however, I'm wondering what may be left on the table without it"... but I think it's sort of hard to say in a general sense. Yes, you would change your body and your capabilities if you emphasized deadlifts in your training and build your ability to deadlift heavy weight. Would that traning and/or the resulting change get you more where you need or want to be? Only you can say.

But I'll say that deadlifts ARE awesome - for back and leg strength, for grip strength, for building the mental fortitude to do something hard... And to me they just feel good, as a really healthy strength stimulus. Kind of pure brute strength... far away from power, metabolic conditioning, aerobic work, technique, balance, speed, or anything else. Short of having a heavy weight overhead, I'm not sure there's a better feeling in strength training than standing up with a really heavy weight in your hands.
 
Anna,
Thanks for the response. Prior to kettlebells, about two years ago, I did barbell work. I'd had back issues through my 30's, and hoped strengthening my body would help. Unfortunately, it didn't. While I went from an 80lb deadlift (really) to a 300lb in two months, my back issues only got worse. The overhead press also caused shoulder issues that are just now healing. Barbells at the time, were the opposite of helpful.

That's how I arrived at kettlebells. The goblet squat specifically fixed my back issues. A decade of pain gone in a matter of weeks.

My thought is that my QL's were "taking over" for my glute medius and the DL exacerbated that. SLDL's probably have fixed this issue.

If I were to say which direction I prefer to go-it is explosive/athletic movements over pure strength. Barbell lifting made me feel "slow", and that's not what I'm looking for. I suppose I may be answering my own questions here...and perhaps the swing is an appropriate movement instead of the barbell.
 
power is more important than strength as we age
I agree with this opinion. For this reason I've been thinking of taking a cycle of jump goblet squats .

I'm a bigger guy, 235 right now, and after a barbell cycle of zercher squats(ended up over 200lbs. ; Other things got in the way.) I may try lighter load jump squats with a kettlebell.

I can't clean my 40+32k yet. But, I know I can clean and front squat a 32k+24k pretty easily. I know I can goblet squat with the 48kg. Maybe I'll try a jump squat with the 32kg and see what happens . Maybe you and I can compare notes after. 2x week start with a 3x3 work up to 5x5 and see what happens.
 
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Anna,
Thanks for the response. Prior to kettlebells, about two years ago, I did barbell work. I'd had back issues through my 30's, and hoped strengthening my body would help. Unfortunately, it didn't. While I went from an 80lb deadlift (really) to a 300lb in two months, my back issues only got worse. The overhead press also caused shoulder issues that are just now healing. Barbells at the time, were the opposite of helpful.

That's how I arrived at kettlebells. The goblet squat specifically fixed my back issues. A decade of pain gone in a matter of weeks.

My thought is that my QL's were "taking over" for my glute medius and the DL exacerbated that. SLDL's probably have fixed this issue.

If I were to say which direction I prefer to go-it is explosive/athletic movements over pure strength. Barbell lifting made me feel "slow", and that's not what I'm looking for. I suppose I may be answering my own questions here...and perhaps the swing is an appropriate movement instead of the barbell.

If you have answered your own question, you're good! And I think you'd be in good shape for your goals if you stay on the path you're on.

But just as food for thought, I don't think your prior experience would necessarily mean that you can't deadlift without your back issues getting worse. Your past progression sounds a bit fast, so I think giving your body more training and recovery time to adapt to the stress of heavier deadlifts might possibly have avoided the problems you ran into. Also, a pure focus on strength may make you feel "slow", I agree, but a mix of strength and power easily fixes that, IMO. Anyway, all that to say, you might want to try deadlifts again someday, but I think you'll survive just fine without them, too. :)
 
If you have answered your own question, you're good! And I think you'd be in good shape for your goals if you stay on the path you're on.

But just as food for thought, I don't think your prior experience would necessarily mean that you can't deadlift without your back issues getting worse. Your past progression sounds a bit fast, so I think giving your body more training and recovery time to adapt to the stress of heavier deadlifts might possibly have avoided the problems you ran into. Also, a pure focus on strength may make you feel "slow", I agree, but a mix of strength and power easily fixes that, IMO. Anyway, all that to say, you might want to try deadlifts again someday, but I think you'll survive just fine without them, too. :)
Hear Hear.
The aim is not to lift as much as you can in poor form.
You can't rule an exercise out having practised it for only two months and while progressing the load.
What's the rush?
I'd recommend investing a few slow years learning the TGU to sort your back out.
 
Appreciate the advice all. I think Pete is right in saying to hold off on things for now. Perhaps setting a well thought out goal on swings/TGU/SLDL before venturing back into DL's.
 
You'll be surprised at the carryover you have when you swing and even snatch the 32.

Cautiously challenge yourself but don't under estimate your potential
 
I'll just say, power is built on max strength. And I suspect that the carryover to power from training max strength is probably more than the carryover to max strength from training power. And in that way, training max strength at least a little could be more efficient use of time. Not that I have any research to point to, that's my intuition.

I had at one point arrived at a similar place of deciding "I'm too old to worry about being really strong anymore". I have since changed my mind, and I think I'm better off for it.

I'm not saying you need to work on a huge DL. But I would say I think there's some value to working on max strength, in whatever form that takes (DL, squat, double kettlebells, whatever)
 
I'll just say, power is built on max strength. And I suspect that the carryover to power from training max strength is probably more than the carryover to max strength from training power. And in that way, training max strength at least a little could be more efficient use of time. Not that I have any research to point to, that's my intuition.
I have researched this a bit (don't ask why) and I will say very cautiously, and as a very general rule, this is correct. Once you start talking about training athletes who compete in a sport that requires power, things get more nuanced.

I had at one point arrived at a similar place of deciding "I'm too old to worry about being really strong anymore". I have since changed my mind, and I think I'm better off for it.

I agree. There's no reason to stop training to be "really strong" just because of age. I would argue that it becomes more important to train for strength as we age.
 
I'll just say, power is built on max strength. And I suspect that the carryover to power from training max strength is probably more than the carryover to max strength from training power. And in that way, training max strength at least a little could be more efficient use of time. Not that I have any research to point to, that's my intuition.
Yes and no. The fastest and most powerful athletes are not always the strongest. Most coaches would tell you it's easier to make someone who's naturally fast and powerful into someone who's strong than making a strong person into a explosive/powerful person.

Doesn't really matter though. I generally agree w. what you're saying. I think to the OP, goals matter - you've expressed a desire to be 'powerful', but how do you want to express that power?
 
It is indeed true that maximal strength is the easiest way to improve power for the layman.

For an athlete, the requirement of absolute strength typically depends on the weight of the specific implement and the time one has to display the necessary force of the specific sporting action.

Last, the development of absolute strength is a question of opportunity cost.
 
I do barbell ballistics and pulls from the floor 3x a week right now and when I go do swings again on "variety days", while I feel swings are pretty good for power qualities and butt / hammy hypertrophy, swings are just not as good as DLs for strengthening the spinal erectors and lower back.
 
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Maybe KBs will help you fix your issues so you can go back to barbells at some point and get more out of it.

One idea I have been playing around with is to increase the range of motion of the KB DL by using packages of copy paper and to use a simple ratchet strap to tie KBs together to allow the use of heavier weights. I only tried it a couple of times with my two 28kg KBs tied to my two 20kg KBs (so only 96kg or 216lbs) but it felt very good and like it would work a lot of muscles over a good range of motion.

Obviously it's no perfect substitute to a barbell but IMO KBs could be modified to get closer to the some of the heavier barbell lifts.
 
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