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Barbell Deadlift wedging question

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Doug Drinen

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I am in search of the all-important wedge in the deadlift setup.

I have heard it described a couple of different ways. (1) it feels like you're "stuck between the floor and the bar," or (2) it feels as if the weight is starting to float up before you even initiate the pull. I can't say I've ever experienced either of these feelings, so I probably have not yet successfully found the wedge. But I guess it's possible that I have, but the descriptions above don't quite match the way my brain interprets the same feeling.

So here is a question: if you are wedged in hard, and you let go of the bar, what would happen? Me? I would fall back on my butt. Hard. Is this a sign that I'm doing it right, or a sign that I'm doing it wrong?

Next question: when you were learning, did you have a hard time figuring out the wedge? If so, was there a particular cue that made it click for you? I have scoured the internet (including this forum) pretty thoroughly, and read the SFL manual, and I'm still not sure I'm getting it.

Thanks for any advice you can offer.
 
I am in search of the all-important wedge in the deadlift setup.

I have heard it described a couple of different ways. (1) it feels like you're "stuck between the floor and the bar," or (2) it feels as if the weight is starting to float up before you even initiate the pull. I can't say I've ever experienced either of these feelings, so I probably have not yet successfully found the wedge. But I guess it's possible that I have, but the descriptions above don't quite match the way my brain interprets the same feeling.

So here is a question: if you are wedged in hard, and you let go of the bar, what would happen? Me? I would fall back on my butt. Hard. Is this a sign that I'm doing it right, or a sign that I'm doing it wrong?

Next question: when you were learning, did you have a hard time figuring out the wedge? If so, was there a particular cue that made it click for you? I have scoured the internet (including this forum) pretty thoroughly, and read the SFL manual, and I'm still not sure I'm getting it.

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

Hey Doug! There are probably greater authorities that can answer this more thoroughly and accurately then I, but wedging to me is essentially preloading your body with as much tension as possible before performing the lift. Since the deadlift starts at the bottom without the eccentric, it is very important to learn to develop this tension right at the start. For me, the bench and squat gain more tension during the descent, but the deadlift does not have this advantage. You must develop that tension before the lift commences. I like to think of "pulling my body into the ground" using the weight of the bar, almost like utilizing a "fake" eccentric to the lift. Alas, to do perform techniques as such, a lot of smart lifter's have assumed the practice of visualizing the opposite performance of a lift. Let me explain. In the bench press, a common cue is to not "press the bar up, but to push yourself into the bench, away from the bar." on squats, instead of just descending, Pull yourself down via the hip flexors! On pullups, some folks say "don't pull yourself up to the bar, pull the bar towards you". Now of course, you won't really pull the bar towards yourself in a pullup (unless you use a janky doorway bar ) or push yourself very far away from a barbell into a bench but these cues help to assume the appropriate positions and intensify your full body tension techniques. Folks who don't wedge appropriately will neglect leg/hip drive, often round over in the back and "pull the bar up" , as opposed the grinding their feet into the ground, tensing their grip and lats and pulling themselves into to position, thus creating a strong leg lift and a nicely braced torso to initiate the pull. Essentially, you are trying to load your body like a spring, so once you've gathered enough tension, the bar almost lifts itself! And yes, if you're loaded correctly, if you let go of the bar, your body would likely fly backwards. Pavel suggests practicing the drill with a barbell too heavy to move! I practiced with weights like this and also with warmup weight, making them jump off the ground through the gathered tension, pausing for a moment while holding that tension, a couple inches off the ground, then finishing the rep. Also since you know of the wedge technique, have you studied the details and cues in "Deadlift Dynamite" on page 163-165? Lots of good tips there. Good luck and inform of us of your progress!
 
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I am in search of the all-important wedge .................
If so, was there a particular cue that made it click for you? I have scoured the internet (including this forum) pretty thoroughly, and read the SFL manual, and I'm still not sure I'm getting it.

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

Position your feet and grab the bar. Make your arms long and try to "touch your balls to the bar"....that would be the wedge.

Carl in Dover
 
And a tip from Steve Freides that assisted me greatly is to lean back slightly into the pull and wedge in that position so that, as you say, if you did let go of the bar you would fall over. Leaning back like that in the wedge and and also engaging my toes so that I am pushing with my feet added 20kg to my max
 
Folks who don't wedge appropriately will neglect leg/hip drive, often round over in the back and "pull the bar up" , as opposed the grinding their feet into the ground, tensing their grip and lats and pulling themselves into to position, thus creating a strong leg lift and a nicely braced torso to initiate the pull.

The Deadlift Is A Pull, Not A "Leg Lift"/Leg Press

This is a misconception that continues to be perpetuated. Research from the 1980's (Dr Tom McLaughlin, PhD Exercise Biomechanics, former Powerlifter) determine that; additional research and anecdotal data have conformed it, as well.

Conventional Deadlifters

McLauglin biomechanic's research found that with Conventional Deadlifters, the initial drive off the floor is initiated with the lower back, then leg drive kick in, with the finish of the top end coming from the back.

The Muscle Firing Sequence is: "Back > Legs > Back."

The majority of Conventional Deadlifter who focus on "Leg Lift", initiating diving the weight off the floor in a Conventional Deadlift ensure you will lift less.

Back Rounding In The Conventional Deadlift

1) Upper Back Rounding isn't a issue. Research has demonstrated that it position the bar during the Deadlift closer to the the body Center of Gravity, COG. This means there is less Torque.

The farther an object is from the body, the greater the Torque. Torque essentially magnifies the true weight of the bar/object beyond it real weight.

2) Lower Back Rounding is a huge issue, lower back injury dramatically increases and less weight is lifted.

Sumo Deadlifters

This group initiates the drive off the floor with the legs.

The Muscle Firing Sequence is: "Legs > Back".

Essentially, you are trying to load your body like a spring,

Good point.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Please check out this video, maybe it will help a bit

It does. Thanks @Pavel Macek. Tell me if this is a fair assessment of what's happening...

Once she is set up, say at about 1:03 of the video, she turns her body into a stone statue, fixed in that position. The knee angle, hip angle, and arm angle stay right where they are. She then rotates her body clockwise around the bar. If the weight is light, she is strong enough to actually stay fixed like a stone statue and the weight will have no choice but to come off the floor. If the weight is heavy, she can't stay fixed in her position and what happens is that her lower body gets compressed, or maybe we should called it wedged, into the floor.

Am I understanding all that correctly? Thanks!
 
And a tip from Steve Freides that assisted me greatly is to lean back slightly into the pull and wedge in that position so that, as you say, if you did let go of the bar you would fall over. Leaning back like that in the wedge and and also engaging my toes so that I am pushing with my feet added 20kg to my max

Interesting @LukeV. Whenever I get wedged (at least according to my current understanding of what that should feel like), it forces the weight almost completely onto my heels, which sort of makes me forget about the toes. Maybe bringing them back to the party will help. I'll give it a shot. Thanks.
 
It does. Thanks @Pavel Macek. Tell me if this is a fair assessment of what's happening...

Once she is set up, say at about 1:03 of the video, she turns her body into a stone statue, fixed in that position. The knee angle, hip angle, and arm angle stay right where they are. She then rotates her body clockwise around the bar. If the weight is light, she is strong enough to actually stay fixed like a stone statue and the weight will have no choice but to come off the floor. If the weight is heavy, she can't stay fixed in her position and what happens is that her lower body gets compressed, or maybe we should called it wedged, into the floor.

Am I understanding all that correctly? Thanks!

The key is not allow your buttock shoot up or knees go forward. What personally helped me was to focus on increasing the feet/shin angle (getting the shins vertical/ close to vertical), shifting the weight more to the heels (without lifting my toes), pushing the feet to the ground, pulling the bar backward (using my lats) and upward (just imagery - it actually goes straight up), getting by shoulders back and up (not lifting them - it happens because everything else I just described), hence wedging between the bar and the platform.
 
The Deadlift Is A Pull, Not A "Leg Lift"/Leg Press

This is a misconception that continues to be perpetuated. Research from the 1980's (Dr Tom McLaughlin, PhD Exercise Biomechanics, former Powerlifter) determine that; additional research and anecdotal data have conformed it, as well.

Conventional Deadlifters

McLauglin biomechanic's research found that with Conventional Deadlifters, the initial drive off the floor is initiated with the lower back, then leg drive kick in, with the finish of the top end coming from the back.

The Muscle Firing Sequence is: "Back > Legs > Back."

The majority of Conventional Deadlifter who focus on "Leg Lift", initiating diving the weight off the floor in a Conventional Deadlift ensure you will lift less.

Back Rounding In The Conventional Deadlift

1) Upper Back Rounding isn't a issue. Research has demonstrated that it position the bar during the Deadlift closer to the the body Center of Gravity, COG. This means there is less Torque.

The farther an object is from the body, the greater the Torque. Torque essentially magnifies the true weight of the bar/object beyond it real weight.

2) Lower Back Rounding is a huge issue, lower back injury dramatically increases and less weight is lifted.

Sumo Deadlifters

This group initiates the drive off the floor with the legs.

The Muscle Firing Sequence is: "Legs > Back".



Good point.

Kenny Croxdale

You are indeed correct sir. That study has confirmed that indeed the back begins lift. However, does this mean that a conventional deadlift should not be applying force into the ground with his legs at the start? I used to be very much a back puller, then by default hurt my back and switched to sumo for a while, which allowed me to still train deadlifts. Maybe this criss crossing of styles has carried over to my conventional deadlift. While the back may move the weight, isn't a strong leg drive into the platform necessary for the back to be able to do so more efficiently? Perhaps not. I've noted somewhere that Vince Anello's heaviest attempts often became similar to stiff legged deadlifts. What a strong back that fellow had! Thanks for providing that study! I saw that you've posted somewhere else before too, and must be tired of repeating it. It's always nice to learn something new!
 
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I pull conventional deadlift style and my focus is to not only engage my back but also to drive my heels 'into the ground'- at the same time. My goal is to have my hips power into lockout at the same time as my upper body 'planks' into position. Videotaping myself and then watching Alan Thrall videos has helped immensely. Neither my upper nor my lower body are the prime drivers when deadlifting- my entire body gets 'into the fight'. So far.....no injuries and then progression continues!
 
...does this mean that a conventional deadlift should not be applying force into the ground with his legs at the start?

Leg Drive

The legs are't taking a nap during the initial drive off the floor; the legs are assisting the back.

The exception are individuals who turn a Conventional Deadlift into more of a Stiff Leg (slight break in the knees) Deadlift. The majority of lifters who execute more of a Stiff Leg Deadlift will lift less and place more stress on the back.

McLaughlin Anecdotal Data

McLaughlin'r research found that many of the top Deadlifter perform Stiff Leg Deadlifts, as an Auxiliary Exercise. McLaughlin noted that this was most likely one of the reasons that these lifter were so strong off the floor.

Auxiliary Leg Deadlift Training

To reiterate, in the Conventional Deadlift, the legs assist the back. The stronger your legs (Quads), the greater they assistance your back in breaking the weigh off the floor.

Now let's look as some Quad Deadlift Auxiliary Exercises...

1) Quarter Squats: This exercise works the legs from the same Quarter Squat position used in a Conventional Deadlift.

2) Front Squats: The work load is placed on the Quads.

3) Leg Press: This is another Quad Dominate Exercise. Gene Bell, one of the great Squatters and Deadlifter, stated in an interview that the Leg Press helped his Deadlifter more than his Squat.

4) Quarter Step Up: These are simply One Legged Quarter Squats. One of the benefits is the loading is placed on the legs. It minimizing lower back involvement; more so if performed holding Dumbbells than with a bar on your back.

I used to be very much a back puller, then by default hurt my back and switched to sumo for a while, which allowed me to still train deadlifts. Maybe this criss crossing of styles has carried over to my conventional deadlift.

Overtraining The Lower Back

Your back issue had to do with overtraining. Switching to the Sumo Deadlift placed the work load on the legs, the lower back assisting. This provided some recovery for your lower back.

As McLaughlin state in his research, "The lower back is easily and quickly overtrained."

Heavy Deadlifting and Squatting each week takes it toll.

That is the primary reason the Deadift is only trained one a week, at most; the lower back needs more recovery.

Resolving Overtraining My Lower Back

Like you, I found Heavy Conventional Deadlifting overtrained my Lower Back. To resolve that issue, I dropped Heavy Conventional Deadift Training, replacing it with Heavy Partial Good Mornings.

Heavy Good Mornings allowed me to train my Lower Back without overtraining it. In doing so, my competition Deadlift dramatically went up.

Varying Exercises

Research and anecdotal data have demonstrated that varying exercise increases Limit Strength and Hypertrophy, depend on how you write your training program.

Thus, performing a Sumo Deadlift will help your Conventional Deadlift, and vise versa.

While the back may move the weight, isn't a strong leg drive into the platform necessary for the back to be able to do so more efficiently?

Absolutely

Think of the Deadlift like a "Tug of War". You want everyone on the team pulling the same direction at the same time.

Dr Stuart McGill
Core Training: Evidence Translating to Better Performance and Injury Prevention

The reference of this article on core training applies to the Deadlift (any movement), as well.

"When several muscles contract together, they form a composite structure where the total... is higher than the sum of the individual contributing muscles."

The Synergistic Effect

The sum is greater than its parts. Thus, combing strong back drive with strong leg assistance drive amount to 2 + 2 = 5!

Vince Anello's heaviest attempts often became similar to stiff legged deadlifts.

Anello Is An Anomaly

I refereed some of the meets Anello lifted in. Anello's has a freakish build. It allowed him to pull his Deadlifts with more back; he reminded me of a Cobra when he pulled.

Anello was an exception to the rule. What worked for him would be disastrous for most.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Videotaping myself... Neither my upper nor my lower body are the prime drivers when deadlifting

Maybe, Maybe Not

Even with video taping, it hard to analyse what going on.

Back and Leg Drive in a Deadlift are a "Bang-Bang" movement. It hard to see what really going on.

It similar to replay in sports. Even when viewed in slow motion from different angles, it's often hard to really determine what the right call is.

McLaughlin's Research

McLaughlin's biomechanical video analysis of the Deadlift, other movement he studied, involved some physics in determining the degree of muscle involvement.

EMG, Electromyography

This method enable researcher to determine the degree of muscle involvement in movement; over subjective visual observations.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Leg Drive

The legs are't taking a nap during the initial drive off the floor; the legs are assisting the back.

The exception are individuals who turn a Conventional Deadlift into more of a Stiff Leg (slight break in the knees) Deadlift. The majority of lifters who execute more of a Stiff Leg Deadlift will lift less and place more stress on the back.

McLaughlin Anecdotal Data

McLaughlin'r research found that many of the top Deadlifter perform Stiff Leg Deadlifts, as an Auxiliary Exercise. McLaughlin noted that this was most likely one of the reasons that these lifter were so strong off the floor.

Auxiliary Leg Deadlift Training

To reiterate, in the Conventional Deadlift, the legs assist the back. The stronger your legs (Quads), the greater they assistance your back in breaking the weigh off the floor.

Now let's look as some Quad Deadlift Auxiliary Exercises...

1) Quarter Squats: This exercise works the legs from the same Quarter Squat position used in a Conventional Deadlift.

2) Front Squats: The work load is placed on the Quads.

3) Leg Press: This is another Quad Dominate Exercise. Gene Bell, one of the great Squatters and Deadlifter, stated in an interview that the Leg Press helped his Deadlifter more than his Squat.

4) Quarter Step Up: These are simply One Legged Quarter Squats. One of the benefits is the loading is placed on the legs. It minimizing lower back involvement; more so if performed holding Dumbbells than with a bar on your back.



Overtraining The Lower Back

Your back issue had to do with overtraining. Switching to the Sumo Deadlift placed the work load on the legs, the lower back assisting. This provided some recovery for your lower back.

As McLaughlin state in his research, "The lower back is easily and quickly overtrained."

Heavy Deadlifting and Squatting each week takes it toll.

That is the primary reason the Deadift is only trained one a week, at most; the lower back needs more recovery.

Resolving Overtraining My Lower Back

Like you, I found Heavy Conventional Deadlifting overtrained my Lower Back. To resolve that issue, I dropped Heavy Conventional Deadift Training, replacing it with Heavy Partial Good Mornings.

Heavy Good Mornings allowed me to train my Lower Back without overtraining it. In doing so, my competition Deadlift dramatically went up.

Varying Exercises

Research and anecdotal data have demonstrated that varying exercise increases Limit Strength and Hypertrophy, depend on how you write your training program.

Thus, performing a Sumo Deadlift will help your Conventional Deadlift, and vise versa.



Absolutely

Think of the Deadlift like a "Tug of War". You want everyone on the team pulling the same direction at the same time.

Dr Stuart McGill
Core Training: Evidence Translating to Better Performance and Injury Prevention

The reference of this article on core training applies to the Deadlift (any movement), as well.

"When several muscles contract together, they form a composite structure where the total... is higher than the sum of the individual contributing muscles."

The Synergistic Effect

The sum is greater than its parts. Thus, combing strong back drive with strong leg assistance drive amount to 2 + 2 = 5!



Anello Is An Anomaly

I refereed some of the meets Anello lifted in. Anello's has a freakish build. It allowed him to pull his Deadlifts with more back; he reminded me of a Cobra when he pulled.

Anello was an exception to the rule. What worked for him would be disastrous for most.

Kenny Croxdale

Wow! awesome information in this post. Thank you so much for sharing!
 
All good on this thread. I e had two cues help me.


1. Try to pull your feet through the floor before the attempt. This helps get slack out of the body.

2. Take 50 pounds off the bar before it’s lifted. This refers to preloading.

Good luck
 
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