all posts post new thread

Barbell Deadlift wedging question

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Is this a cue? Could you elaborate this? How does this work?
Imagine there are 2 scales under the weights. One on each side of the barbell. If you set up and wedge properly before the lift off you will take some pounds off those scales cause you are bearing some of the load. So you are loaded before you actual pull to take the weight of the ground. As you get better at wedging, you will find you need yo focus on this less and less. It’s just there.
 
I would like to put my view of wedging.

The way I wedge for deadlifts (and swings) was evolved through progressing hands & thighs lift (deadlift lockouts) up the load and increase the ROM. In Rock, Iron, Steel Justa says to lift the H&T explosivley and to never grind it. He explains that since it is a heavy lift with short ROM if you need to grind it you are probably compensating and will injure yourself. Pretty soon I learned that in this lift the setup determines the explosiveness more than anything else.

When I started alternating upping the weight with increasing ROM (Steve Baccari's deadlift routine from Easy Strength) I found out that setup is EVERYTHING. Missing my foot position just a little led to much more back involvment and less explosive lift even when I thought of wedging between the bar and ground. My I started experimenting with setup, and did some blind setups. Soon I learned to feel before the lift that all the force is directed upward when I just start putting force to the ground. If I feel that some if it goes back I readjust my feet. When putting force to the ground results in no horizontal movement at all I just keep driving down and wedge my hips forward. This reduced back involvement and more exlposive lift with better alignment and feel at lockout.

Just my 2 cents.
 
...Never grind it.

To Grind or Not To Grind

Grinding and Not Grinding out a Deadlift are dependent on various factors.

The Reason NOT To Grind Out The Deadlift.

1) The lower back is quickly and easily overtrained, as per Dr Tom McLaughlin's research. That is also why Powerlifters train the Deadlift only once a week at most; anecdotal data.

2) Deadlift Technique (all lifts are altered) when the muscle in the movement are fatigued.

They key to increasing your Deadlift is to perform train it for single repetition, with load of 85% plus, focusing on technique. Once fatigue set in, STOP. Continuing past that point ensure you will develop poor technique.

Use Auxiliary Exercise that are similar in nature to the Deadlift to increase Strength.

Reasons To Grind It Out

If the Deadlift is being used as a means of increasing Strength, at some point, you need to infrequently ramp of the intensity; meaning Grind Out some Reps.

...if you need to grind it you are probably compensating and will injure yourself.

Compensation and Injury

Muscle fatigue in a movement lead to compensation in technique in the Deadlift, all exercises. However, the greater the intensity, the greater the muscle fiber recruitment. Muscle fiber that aren't trained, don't grow.

Injury

Any exercise that elevates the intensity of the movement to the point of "Grinding It" out increases the risk of injury; however, that doesn't mean you will injure yourself.

I learned that in this lift the setup determines the explosiveness more than anything else.

Not Quite

Technique is important in all movements.

However, it is far from being the most important component of explosiveness.

Strength Is The Foundation of Power

Strength is the primary factor for Power.

Initially, Novice Lifter will increase Power by increasing their Limit Strength (1 Repetition Max).

Thus, a 500 lb Deadlifter is doing to display more explosiveness than a 300 lb Deadlifter.

With that said, as you move past being a Novice Lifter, Power Training combined with Limit Strength Training is vital to increasing explosiveness. This has been addressed in other post.

all the force is directed upward

Not Quite

In the Deadlift, the bar move up and back at the same time.

Pulling The Weight Back

One of the keys to pulling a Personal Best Deadlift is to keep the bar as close to your body's Center of Gravity (COG) as possible.

To do that you need to pull the bar back on top of you, drag it up you legs.

The farther away the bar is from your Center of Gravity, the more the bar weight is magnified (Torque).

Secondly, dragging the bar up your legs is somewhat like lifting a weight in a Smith Machine. Your legs are the "Guide Rods" that you are sliding it across; providing greater stability. That is one of the reason everyone can lift more a Smith Machine than a Free Weight Movement.

Kenny Croxdale
 
@kennycro@@aol.com , you made good points which I agree with. It's just none of them had allot to do with my post... This might be because you read, quoted and responded to sentences and not the post in it's entirity. The post is about wedging cues and setup and mostly refer to the hands & thighs lift (aka 1/4 deadlift or deadlift lockout) not full deadlift.

If it seemed that I (or Justa) claim that a signle grinding lift will injure you this is not the case but only increase your chance of injury, as you stated. I will try and be more accurate next time.

There are probably as many deadlift bar-paths as their are deadlifters. In Power to the People: Proffesional Pavel show to technique groups - pulling back on the heels, and lifting up on midfoot and their pros and cons.

Something I haven't mentioned, and probably have large influence on my lifting, is that I do not lift for lifting but for building myself to be better and more reslient in other sports and life. Borowoing from Gray Cook - lifting is where gain my fitness, not where I enjoy it.
 
I’ll offer some personal observations as a person who started lifting to help with a bad back.

1. I feel much less likely to injure myself deadlifting 300 lbs than I do swinging a 24 kg kettlebell. It’s easier to keep control of a slow movement than a fast one.

2. The same goes for deadlifting quickly. My light weights come up quickly enough.

3. The basic guideline for everyone, IMHO, is that you first must learn to get and stay tight. After that, adding speed while still staying tighten enough is a good option for some people. Personally I prefer to train explosiveness with kettlebell ballistics for reps.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-
 
1. I feel much less likely to injure myself deadlifting 300 lbs than I do swinging a 24 kg kettlebell. It’s easier to keep control of a slow movement than a fast one.

That's very interesting, and almost inconceivable to me.

I'm, honest to goodness, more concerned about injury deadlifting 135 than swinging the 40kg bell (which I know is a bit ridiculous). It's clear that part of my deadlifting problem is psychological. I'm working on it though. And this thread has been helpful. Thanks to all who have participated.
 
@Doug Drinen, getting tight both protects you and improves your performance - a win/win. Ballistics require turning that rapidly on and off, and staying tight while a ball of iron moving quickly tries to make you bend in ways you don't want to.

Practice makes perfect. Practice deadlifting with an eye towards using tightness to make 135 lbs. feel like a piece of paper.

-S-
 
I agree with @Steve Freides . I've suffered from lower back aches for a long while, though with no diagnosis. Swings have aggravated the issue on occasion, though it may also be due to my swing form. However, I've never had any issues with deadlifts, even when I've deadlifted close to 600 lbs without a belt. To top it off, the deadlifts have mostly cured me of the problem in my everyday life.
 
I agree with @Steve Freides . I've suffered from lower back aches for a long while, though with no diagnosis. Swings have aggravated the issue on occasion, though it may also be due to my swing form. However, I've never had any issues with deadlifts, even when I've deadlifted close to 600 lbs without a belt. To top it off, the deadlifts have mostly cured me of the problem in my everyday life.

So interesting. It's the swings that have cured me of everyday-life low back issues.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom