Deadlift with resistance bands

Discussion in 'Barbell' started by FinlayB, Nov 8, 2019.

  1. FinlayB

    FinlayB Double-Digit Post Count

    Hello,

    I have been deadlifting for a few years now and worked up to double bodyweight a while back. Through moving country and dealing with all the stuff that comes with that including some small injuries my lifting took a back seat for quite a few months.

    Back in to it now in my little condo gym, it is not the biggest or best equipped but with a little imagination can get some good strength work in.

    The barbell set up is quite light, and it is hex plates.

    I have been working on RDL for a few months now, and recently bought a resistance band to add some weight easily.

    So, I'd like to ask if this makes sense.

    The resistance band goes from 40-80 lbs (18-36 kg). If I set up the band so it has 2 loops over the bar with my feet in the middle doubles the potential resistance so 80-160lbs (36-72 kg) an example of the set up is here





    One issue with bands I guess, is although you have a range you never really know how much you are adding to a lift. Even though the resistance will change throughout a lift I am thinking of taking an average estimate of 110lbs (50 kg) added to the mid part of the lift. This is really just to get an idea of numbers as I can always see progress by using the same set up.


    Due to the hex plates, I am limited to:

    RDL - won't be doing these with a band
    Bump and go
    Heavy singles.

    Any input from more knowledgeable people would help a lot
     
    ShawnM and william bad butt like this.
  2. Jeff Roark

    Jeff Roark Triple-Digit Post Count

    When I do things like this, I never worry myself with how much resistance it will provide. I just use it in the same manner every time. You can watch your progress in the form of extra plates added to the bar with the band.

    I'm also going to caution you, respect this lift when going heavy. I found banded deadlifts drained me more than about and other lift I've done. You may be different from me, but just keep an eye on it.
     
  3. Bro Mo

    Bro Mo Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    You can also run the bands outside the plates and under for added resistance. I think banded deadlifts make the most sense at about 60% +bands done for speed.
     
  4. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Power Training

    48 to 60% of your 1 Repetition Max develop Power.

    Speed Trainin

    10 to 40%, with around 30% being the sweet spot, of your 1 Repetition Max develops Speed.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
    ShawnM likes this.
  5. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Good Method

    This is a good, simple method.

    For someone interested in knowing how much resistance is provide at the top end of movement...

    Fish Scale
    https://www.walmart.com/ip/Juslike-...gital-Fish-Hook-Hanging-Scale-Black/878508583

    I have this fish scale. It is cheap and works great.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
  6. Bro Mo

    Bro Mo Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    @kennycro@@aol.com I should have clarified focusing on lifting quickly, not literally training the attribute of speed.
     
  7. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    That is what I thought.

    As you basically stated, you want to push/pull the weight as hard as fast as you can, not matter how what the load is; Compensatory Acceleration, Hatfield.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Jeff Roark likes this.
  8. Jeff Roark

    Jeff Roark Triple-Digit Post Count

  9. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    JM Blakley

    A smart guy with some good information, as well as questionable.

    Let break some of this down...

    Speed/Power Training

    He doesn't see any carryover of Speed/Power Training for Powerlifter.

    Conjugate Training

    Anecdotal data from 30 years of the Westside Powerlifing Method indicates that it works.

    Dr Michael Zourdos' research demonstrated that strength was increase when a training program included: Hypertrophy, Power and Limit Strength Training. A synergistic effect was elicited. Source: Physiological Responses to Two Different Models of Daily Undulating Periodization in Trained Powerlifters [https://liftvault.com/wp-content/up...esearch-Zourdos-et-al-2012-LiftVault.com_.pdf]

    With that said, focusing only on strength in the Powerlifts will definitely increase Limit Strength. That approach works but here's...

    The Downside

    The downside of using a competition movement to increase strength is that it compromised the technique of the movement.

    Powerlifter are one of the few groups of athletes, perhaps the only group, that employ the competition lift as a means of increasing strength in it.

    When this training approach is used, at some point, technique is altered due to muscle fatigue.

    "...The bar path changes with fatigue, especially early in technique acquisition, indicative that certain muscle groups are not able to withstand the load and contribute in a coordinated fashion..." Source: Journal of Fitness Research, December 2016, Volume 5, Issue 3.

    Speed/Power Training Impedes Recovery

    Only if a program is poorly written and performed.

    Doesn't Believe In Training Plateaus

    "If you believe in plateaus, your going to get one."

    This statement make no sense.

    Thus, if you refuse to believe in a training plateau, you won't have one. Would that it be.

    Recovery

    This is something that everyone agrees with.

    That is one of the reason for Periodization Training; an ebb and flow of recovery and max effort.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019 at 1:47 PM
  10. Antti

    Antti More than 2500 posts

    JM Blakley is not alone with his views. I can't remember Siff & Verkhokhansky or Zatsiorsky & Kraemer recommend speed training for powerlifting in their seminal works. The recommendation was only maximal effort and repetition or submaximal training.

    I also understand the repetition method to be superior to the submaximal method because of the fatigue inherent in the repetition method enhances motor unit recruitment. This makes training to fatigue sensible. Also, seeking hypertrophy through the competition exercises means the hypertrophy and effort is more in the right places, as weight class athletes shouldn't necessarily seek hypertrophy just for its own sake.
     
  11. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Ed Coan doen't use Speed/Power Training, that I know of. So yes, strength can and will be increased in a Powerlifting lift by performing the Squat, Bench Press, and Deadlift.

    The main issues remain that technique changes when fatigue sets in.

    McLaughlin's (PhD Exercise Biomechanics) Bench Press More Now (book) noted the optimal method of Competition Bench Press Training Development was to utilize load of 85% plus for 1 maybe two repetition per set. That's true of any lift and fall in line with other research.

    I am not sure what you mean. So, I can't reply.

    Hypertrophy With The Competitive Lifts

    The primary issue in employing the Competition Lifts as for Hypertrophy Training is that technique is altered.

    As for Hypertrophy Training with the Competition Lifts, it might have a little positive effect. However, research and empirical data have demonstrated that varying exercise similar to the Competition Lifts optimizes strength, as well as size.

    Auxiliary Exercise

    One of the benefits of Auxiliary Exercises that are similar in nature to the Competition Lifts is they allow you to increase strength, without developing poor technique in the lift. This makes them disposable; more like recyclable.

    Muscle Hypertrophy

    Increasing the size of the muscles for weight class athletes is fine. It increases you leverage in a lift.

    If it increase the weight of the lifter, making it too hard for him to remain in his weight class, it may not be worth it.

    The lifter then need to decide if he/she want to remain in the lower weight class or move up to the next weight class and mature into it.

    If the lifter can perform better in the higher weight class, it is worth it. If they can, it not worth it.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
  12. Antti

    Antti More than 2500 posts

    In Science and Practice of Strength Training max strength training outside of maximal effort is divided into submaximal method and repetition method. A submaximal weight is lifted either a submaximal number of times (=submaximal) or to failure (=repetition).

    In order for motor units to become trained, they must be recruited and fatigued, as you know. These conditions are fulfilled with the repetition method. Fatigue is an integral part of the repetition method.

    However, it does make sense that one limits the number of reps in competitive exercises, even if using the repetition method. 5-6RM sounds like a good baseline.

    A certain degree of exercise variety is beneficial, yes.

    I can see the maximal effort according to McLaughlin be the optimal method for advanced athletes. I wouldn't recommend it to novices, for example, though.
     
  13. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Great book. I have it.

    The Size Principle

    The recruitment of Type I-Slow, Type IIa-Fast and Type IIb/x-"Super" Fast Muscle Fiber has to do with the motor units.

    Slow Twitch Type I are recruited first, then Fast Twitch IIa and finally "Super" Type IIb/x. The firing sequence is: Type 1 > Type IIa > Type IIb/x.

    Think of Type I, in chess, as the Pawns, Type IIa as the Knighs and Bishop and Type IIb/x as the Rooks and Queen.

    The amount of force required in a movement determine if and how quickly each type of muscle fiber is activated.

    Type I: They are recruited first in any movement. If it is a low intensity movement, like walking, they are the primary muscle fiber used. These are used for endurance; they fatigue slowly.

    Type IIa: They are recruited second. These are recruited when more force is required. They appear to engaged when Limit Strength Force is required. They fatigue quickly.

    Type IIb/x: They are recruited last. They appear to engage more when Speed and Explosive Power are needed. They fatigue faster than Type IIa.

    Phosphagen Energy Muscle Fiber Training

    Type IIa and Type IIb/x Training falls into the Phosphagen Energy System. In an all out Limit Strength, Power or Speed movement, these Fast and "Super" Fast Muscle Fiber are Fatigued/exhausted in around 10 seconds or less.

    That is one of the reason that Limit Strength, Power and Speed Repetition are limited to 5 - 6 Repetition Per Set, few reps is usually better.

    Thus, once you performing more than 5 - 6 repetition in a set, you are no longer training Limit Strength, Power or Speed. Your training is more toward Strength Endurance; Type I/Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber Training.

    Limit Strength Training

    At some point in a Limit Strength Training Cycle, you need to go to failure or close to it.

    Since Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber fatigue in around 10 seconds or less, training repetition need to be kept to 6 reps per set or less.

    Once you exceed the 6 repetition range, you are no longer training the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

    Power Training

    The same repetition range and sets are used for Power as for Limit Strength Training.

    The difference is that the Power Training Percentage is 48 - 62% of your 1 Repetition Max for Traditional Strength Movements: Squats, Press, Deadlift, etc.

    The Power Training Percentage for Olympic Movements is between 70 - 80% of your 1 Repetition Max.

    Power Training involves training the "Super" Fast Muscle Fiber with out completely fatiguing them.

    Power Training requires you train the movement when you are fresh or allow for partial recovery of the "Super" Fast Fiber with Cluster Sets, short rest period between each rep or set of reps.

    Hypertrophy Training

    Higher Repetition with usually short rest periods are the most effective. High repetition promoted more Type I growth.

    "The Pump"/Metabolic Stress is the primary key for increasing muscle mass; triggering the anabolic effect.

    The downside of only performing a Hypertrophy Training Program is a dramatic drop in Limit Strength and Power.

    Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training
    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a122/3cfbd61e6e9540c7e9813c91d6738ad53ad4.pdf

    Dr Jonathan Oliver's research determined Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training enabled athlete to gain muscle mass and maintain Limit Strength and Power. See research article above.

    Exercise are trained with small clusters of repetitions (less than 6 reps) with rest periods between repetition or clusters of repetitions of around 15 to 45 seconds.

    Each rep of each set needs to be preformed explosively. If power drops off, the set is terminated.

    This Hypertrophy Method targets the Fast and "Super" Fast Muscle Fiber.

    Performing Repetition With Competition Lift

    Each successive repetition performed in a Competition Lift changes your technique.

    How quickly it changes your technique depend on the the percentage of the 1 Repetition Max you are using; how much fatigue you have accumulated.

    "...The bar path changes with fatigue, especially early in technique acquisition, indicative that certain muscle groups are not able to withstand the load and contribute in a coordinated fashion..." Source: Journal of Fitness Research, December 2016, Volume 5, Issue 3.

    Using The Competition Lifts For Training Exercises

    This method was successfully used by JM Blakley and Ed Coan. So, it works to a degree.

    However, it doesn't make sense.

    You don't see Baseball Batters or Baseball Pitchers performing non-stop back to back repetition nor Quarterback throwing for non-stop reps.

    You don't see a Pole Vaulter, High Jumper, Shot Putter, Hammer Thrower, ect performing non-stop reps.

    Powerlifter appear to be the only group of athletes that uses the Competition Lifts as Training Exercises; The Westside Method is the exception.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
  14. Antti

    Antti More than 2500 posts

    I agree that that low rep training with the relevant intensity is the best training for the competition lifts. However, we can't do only the maximal effort. Like the aforementioned book says, we need the submaximal training as well.

    The powerlifts are simple lifts. They demand far less intermuscular coordination than your examples like the T&F events or the olympic lifts. Weighlifters typically squat for 2-6 reps in the book, even if the squat is very important to them.
     
  15. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Submaximal Training

    Submaximal Training is performing a movement with less than your 1 Repetition Max.

    Technique Training utilizes loads of 85% plus of your 1 Repetition Max for a 1 Repetition.

    300 lb Bench Press 1 Repetition Max Example

    In developing technique, that means you use at least 85% of your 300 lb (around 135 kg) 1 Repetition Max.

    300 lbs (135 kg) Max X 85% = 255 lbs/115 kg for 1 Repetition per set; the focus is on technique.

    A rough estimate for most individual mean they should be able to perform around 6 Repetition with 85% of their max.

    The Take Home Message

    Technique Training with load of 85% is Submaximal Training. It isn't Maximal Effort Training.

    The Powerlifts

    They are comparative simple compared to the Olympic Lifts. However, that doesn't mean Technique Training should be down played or neglected.

    As Dr Tom McLaughlin (PhD Exercise Biomechanics/former Powerlifter) stated regarding the Powerlifts, "Technique is everything".

    Let me post this again. The statement is in regard is from to article is on the Bench Press and Squat...

    "...The bar path changes with fatigue, especially early in technique acquisition, indicative that certain muscle groups are not able to withstand the load and contribute in a coordinated fashion..." Source: Journal of Fitness Research, December 2016, Volume 5, Issue 3.

    With each repetition performed in a Bench Press, Squat, etc. technique and the muscle firing sequence is gradually altered; changes for the worse rather than the better.

    With each repetition, gradually muscle fatigue increases. That is good for Limit Strength Training and Hypertrophy.

    However, it's not good for developing Technique or Power.

    What occurs is you end up turning one movement into a completely different animal.

    A Squat-Morning Example

    A common issue with lifters with strong back and weak leg drive, is that once their legs fatigue or are overloaded, they lean forward, shifting the load to their greatest strength, their back.

    Ironically, most individual believe performing a Squat-Morning means have a weak back; which isn't true.

    Bench Press Rep Contest

    At a Bench Press for Reps Contest, someone commented to me what was interesting is that both right and left handed lifter were weaker in their dominate arm.

    Their reasoning, was that as muscle fatigue set in, the bar would drop lower, lagging behind with the dominate arm.

    The reverse was true. The uneven extension of the bar, with the bar being lower in the dominate arm meant that some of the load of the weaker arm was being shifted to the stronger dominate arm.

    As more muscle fatigue set in Technique gradually shift. With each repetition, the movement slow migrates metaphorically from being one animal to another.

    The only thing that is consistent is the inconsistency.

    The Purpose of Technique Training

    Each Repetition in the Movement need to the performed with the same technique as the previous one.

    Technique Training With Lighter Loads

    Training with light does not improve you Technique in a 1 Repetition Max.

    As I have posted before, "In Baseball, practicing hitting a 60 mph make you good at hitting a 60 mph ball, not a 90 mph ball."

    Kenny Croxdale
     
  16. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides Director of Community Engagement Staff Member Senior Certified Instructor

    My opinion, for what it's worth, is that speed training's benefits or lack thereof are highly individual.

    My own example: I had a severe lower back injury. Doing deadlifts with intentional speed frightens me to this day. It took me a long time to get used to swinging a kettlebell for this same reason. The tight, slow, heavy deadlift was, is, and most likely will be the key training lift that keeps my lower back healthy.

    When I'm deadlifting regularly, pulling 225 @ 150 lb bodyweight moves quickly. My wife tells me it looks like I'm picking up grocery bags. But that's nothing more than a reflection of what the weight is like for me to lift. In fact, I've taken to starting at 245 or 265 lately just because I don't find I get any benefit from a deadlift that moves quickly.

    -S-
     
    Chrisdavisjr likes this.
  17. Antti

    Antti More than 2500 posts

    I didn't think we were considering a squat turning into a good morning when talking about fatigue or the repetition method.

    Even the weighlifters, the power specialists, the focus of the strength training literature, do singles only as minority of their training even in the competition lifts. Singles only account for less than a fifth of their training volume. Not to mention the way they squat again.
     
  18. Chrisdavisjr

    Chrisdavisjr Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    ... might as well be a clean.
     
  19. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    The Take Home Point

    The point is that technique is altered with each repetition in a movement with muscle fatigue.

    Minor change occur with each repetition, dependent on the amount of muscle fatigue. It gradually mutate from being one movement to something different.

    Limitation Factor

    Due to the use of higher training percentage with 85% plus of 1 Repetition Max, there is going to be some limitation in the amount Technique Training allowed.

    The same can be applies to Limit Strength Training.

    Olympic Lifters

    Olympic Lifter appear to be able to employ Technique Training with heavy lows for single repetition more often due fact that they are primarily Concentric Movement, with a very limited amount of the Eccentric Movement involved.

    As we know, the Eccentric Component is the one most responsible for Delayed Onset of Soreness. The Eccentric Component place the muscle under greater trauma.

    Thus, in movement that involve a greater Eccentric Component, more trauma means more recovery time is required.

    As per "Wound Healing" the great the trauma to the body, the longer the recovery time.

    Dr Fred Hatfield Concentric Only Squat Training

    One of the interesting method Dr Fred Hatfield did that enabled him minimize the trauma and increase his Squat training recovery was to perform Concentric Only Squats.

    Hatfield would place the on the pins in a Power Rack. Get under it and drive it up.

    Once in the final Squat locked out position. Hatfield would then drop the bar down to the pins on the rack; eliminating the Eccentric Component of the Squat.

    That couldn't have been good for the bar nor the rack. That will get you toss out of any gym, including mine.

    A more effective method that I have posted information on before is...

    Car Strap Concentric Only Lifting

    Car Straps are the cheap version of Spud Lifting Straps.

    Some Car Straps are rated up to 2,000 per strap.

    My favorite Good Morning Concentric Only Training is with Car Straps; drive the weight up, then let it fall. I place pins just below where the Car Straps stop for safety, in case one snaps.

    Car Strap doesn't beat the bar or rack up. Plus, it does make any noise.

    Technique Training.

    While using some lower load/intensity in the Competition Lifts has some value, Technique is optimized with loads that are closer to your 1 Repetition Max.

    "The science of motor learning explains that an extreme, all out movement is operated by a program different from that used for the identical task performed at a moderate intensity. As far as your nervous system is concerned, throwing a football for maximum distance is a totally different ball game than passing it ten yards, ..." Source: Pavel

    Long rest periods need to be taken between heavy Technique Training Sets of 1 Repetition to ensure your proper form is maintain.

    Once muscle fatigue sets in, your Technique Training Session is over.

    Recovery Between Sets

    As Pavel stated in regard to increasing Limit Strength, rest periods of up to 10 to 15 minutes per set ensure a greater training effect is elicited; increases your Limit Strength.

    With that said, full recovery is necessary before each Technique Training Set to elicit the optimal effect.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019 at 12:12 PM
  20. Bro Mo

    Bro Mo Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    Cluster sets have been good for me to work with high intensity while maintaining technique and velocity.

    Something like, 4x singles @ 85% with 20sec rest between, done for 4 sets with 3-5 min rest between.
     

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