Deadlifting for practice. How light can you go?

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Steve Freides

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@Toomuch4, it depends on what you mean by "moving along." The deadlift, done too heavy, can take more than it gives.

I would work backwards from a periodic test of your 1RM if "moving along" means increasing your 1RM, and otherwise I would keep things in the 65-85% range, more lifts in the lower range, average lift between 70 and 75%. Whenever you're not aiming for a new 1RM, you will find your personal 'ceiling' where training above that will start to detract from your other training.

For me, that's around 85% for a single, 80% for a triple, 75% for 5's and that, in turn, will mean my training will include 5's in the 65-70% range, triples in the 70-75% range, and singles at 80%. Maybe once or twice a month, I'd go for the top numbers, 85% singles, etc., but not more than that. For me, 90% singles aren't something I do unless I'm heading towards a meet or a 1RM test.

-S-
 

kennycro@@aol.com

> 1k Posts
...Our data show that in resistance-trained individuals, load, when exercises are performed to volitional failure, does not dictate hypertrophy or, for the most part, strength gains.
Training To Failure or Near Failure

Training to failure or near failure has a place for Hypertrophy or Maximum Strength when implemented correctly.

It should be performed infrequently, not that often

Training to failure or near failure should be limited to the last week of a training cycle.

The final week of a Training Cycle is then followed with a new Periodization Training Cycle.

The weight/training load is dramatically dropped down to something light and easy.

The Westside Powerlifting Prtocol's empirical data have demonstrated since the early 1980's it works.

The Bulgarian Olympic Lifter followed this protocol, as well.

This is know as...

Periodization Training

This is planned cyclical training. Training is a...

Sine Wave

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Maximum Intensity coming in the final week where the curve peaks.

The valley of the curve is where you dramatically drop the load and start over, eventually working up to a new peak; personal best for weight and or repetition in a movement.

Changing Exercise

Another method is to change exercise in the new Training Cycle.

This can be as simple as going from a Low Bar Squat to a High Bar Squat, going from a Wide Grip Bench Press to a Narrow Grip Bench Press, going from a Conventional Deadlift to a Sumo Deadlift, etc.

Active Recovery

Dramatically dropping the load down and starting a new Training Cycle allows for recovery; this is where Hypertrophy and Maximum Strength increase, stressing the muscle and then allowing them to recovery.

...6-8 week experiment,
Training Age

The length of a Training Cycle is primarily dictated by Training Age; how long you have been training.

Novice Lifters: They adapt slowly and do well with longer Training Cycles; about 6 - 8 weeks well for them.

Advance Lifters: They adapt quickly. They need to change their Training Cycle more often; about every 3 - 4 weeks.

...did high rep on several exercises, about 50% of RM1. Silly easy at start of set but those last few seemed to require just as much focused attention and care about form as doing same movements with 80% RM1. Quite a different feeling post workout though
Technique Training and Development

Performing Technique Training with a load of 50% does very little in the development development of Technique for a 1 Repetition Maximum for the reason in my previous post.

Using a 50% of 1 Repetition Maximum my amounts to of practicing hitting a 60 mile per hour pitch. It's not going to help you much in hitting a 90 mile per hour pitch.
 
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kennycro@@aol.com

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I think Anna C's comment is right where you want to be cos when you start going over 80% you're starting to get into heavier loads and you can't grease the groove for practice of the movement as much with that kind of weight. You can do heavy singles but i wouldn't, not for working on technique,
Going Over 80% of 1 Repetition Max

As I noted in my previous post, Dr Tom McLaughlin along with other researcher and anecdotal data have demonstrated that Technique is optimally developed for a 1 Repetition Max with load of 85% plus of 1 Repetition.

I also noted that due to the due to the intensity, less frequent training occurs with the 85% plus of 1 Repetition Max.

Incorporating Technique Training with lower loads, as Anna stated of 70 - 80% in conjunction with load of 85% plus of 1 Repetition Max allows for more frequency/practice.

Simulating "Game Conditions"

As with all sports, one of the keys of training is to simulate "Game Conditions" as much as possible.

As Per Antti

If you want to lift a heavy single the heavy single is the absolute best thing you can do. It is "specific adaptation to imposed demand".

The whole idea that singles don't develop strength is plain absurd.

The biggest obstacle to doing singles is that one can't do it for long.
 
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kennycro@@aol.com

> 1k Posts
I meant 70-80% of 1RM for sets; probably 5s.
Technique Training

It's optimally developed with single sets of 1 Repetition.

Research show that with heavier loads such as 80% of 1 Repetition Max, Technique is altered with each repetition as muscle fatigue set in.

I don't see that heavy singles are that relevant for "keeping the deadlift moving along" as OP wants to do.
Technique Training

As per Toomuch4; "I just want to pull to keep the groove...

His reason for singles is to "Grease The Grove", maintain Technique.
r
...if OP's 1RM on conventional deadlift was 360 lbs, I'd recommend 1 or 2 sets of 5 reps in the range of 250 lbs - 290 lbs, just once per week
Increasing Strength

That works for increasing Maximum Strength but not for developing or maintaining Technique.
 
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kennycro@@aol.com

> 1k Posts
Well i disagree with almost all of that.

Dr Craig Marker

As Marker stated in one of his articles...

"Your feelings don’t matter! That is, your subjective feeling of the effectiveness of a workout is not important as what science tells us is important..."

Research And Empirical Data

You disagreement is not with Antti, it is with what research and empirical data based on real world experience has demonstrated over time.

Anything New...

Anything new to all of us is met with resistance.

That is my initial reaction to anything new, as well.

Everything should be question.

However, it should be followed by researching it and trying it.
 
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GeoffreyLevens

> 1k Posts
Using a 50% of 1 Repetition Maximum my amounts to of practicing hitting a 60 mile per hour pitch. It's not going to help you much in hitting a 90 mile per hour pitch.
So if your goal is recreational baseball, with 60 mph standard and seldom to never even seeing a 90 mph pitch, it would be perfect ;)
 

Garage Warrior

Double-Digit Post Count
@kennycro Well that's quite a post but i'm not sure of the scientist behind it and what their credentials are. The fact remains that almost all powerlifters build strength with more reps and volume in between meets. They do not build strength through doing 1 RM constantly in training. Consider a good powerlifter that i know on YT 'Brad Arbic' a monster of a lifter with an 800 Ib + deadlift he pretty much refutes what you're saying as far as building strength. He told me "The worst way to try to build strength is by displaying strength." That would be your 1RM that yourself and Antti are talking about. If the science says something different then the science you're looking at is wrong.
 

Timo Keskitalo

Triple-Digit Post Count
@kennycro Well that's quite a post but i'm not sure of the scientist behind it and what their credentials are. The fact remains that almost all powerlifters build strength with more reps and volume in between meets. They do not build strength through doing 1 RM constantly in training. Consider a good powerlifter that i know on YT 'Brad Arbic' a monster of a lifter with an 800 Ib + deadlift he pretty much refutes what you're saying as far as building strength. He told me "The worst way to try to build strength is by displaying strength." That would be your 1RM that yourself and Antti are talking about. If the science says something different then the science you're looking at is wrong.
Yeah, there is a point.

However the OP was going to develop strength with zercher and low bar squats.
 

Kettlebelephant

> 1k Posts
@kennycro Well that's quite a post but i'm not sure of the scientist behind it and what their credentials are. The fact remains that almost all powerlifters build strength with more reps and volume in between meets. They do not build strength through doing 1 RM constantly in training. Consider a good powerlifter that i know on YT 'Brad Arbic' a monster of a lifter with an 800 Ib + deadlift he pretty much refutes what you're saying as far as building strength. He told me "The worst way to try to build strength is by displaying strength." That would be your 1RM that yourself and Antti are talking about. If the science says something different then the science you're looking at is wrong.
Nobody here ever said to constantly do 1RM lifts as your training...
What we said is heavy singles have their place and are definitely needed to build pure maximal strength.
Even your Brad Arbic agrees with that. A simple google search got me this: 17 Week Block Periodization Powerlifting Peaking Program by Brad Arbic (2020) | Lift Vault
Look at weeks 13-17. Only doubles and singles with 87-105% 1RM .
 

WhatWouldHulkDo

> 1k Posts
What did you think "moving along" meant, if it did not mean retaining the 1RM or improving on it? How does one get stronger in the deadlift without improving the 1RM?
Slightly off the original topic, but just want to say, I love this.

I appreciate that not everybody defines progress as getting indisputably, unquestionably, provably stronger by lifting more weight. There's lots of ways to define progress.

But, I love this one, and I think there's value in learning how to (safely) find your real limits.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

> 1k Posts
Well that's quite a post but i'm not sure of the scientist behind it and what their credentials are
Credentials and Sources

I noted the source was Dr Tom McLaughlin. McLaughlin has a PhD in Exercise Bio-Mechanics. McLaughlin is also a former Powerlifter.

The information from McLaughlin is from his book, Bench Press More Now, that is based on his research.

If you'd liked to examine my credentials, go to my page and click on "About". It provides you with a brief resume on my background.

The fact remains that almost all powerlifters build strength with more reps and volume in between meets.
The Facts

Strength can be build using the Competition Lifts for training exercise.

However, the issue is as muscle fatigue sets in Technique falls apart. You end up getting stronger while sacrificing Technique.

A common sense example of this is...

Pole Vaulting For Repetitions

A Pole Vaulter does not preform non-stop repetitions; vaulting over the bar, running back and then performing 4 more back to back repetition; nor does that occur with other athletes such as Baseball Pitchers and Batter, Quarterbacks, etc.

Technique for Pole Vaulters, etc is developed, figuratively speaking, one repetition at a time.

It appear that using the Competition Lift as the training exercise is unique to Powerlifters for some strange reason. I grew up doing that way, as well.

Developing Strength

The key for Powerlifter in developing strength in the Squat, Bench Press and Deadlift is Auxiliary Exercise that are similar in nature to the Competition Lifts.

This allows you to increase Maximum Strength in the Competition Lifts without developing poor Technique.

McLaughlin discussed that in his book, as well.

As perTimo Keskitalo, "...The OP was going to develop strength with zercher and low bar squats."

Westside Powerlifting Training

The Westside Powerlifing Protocol that been around since the early 1980's is based on employing Auxiliary Exercise to develop Maximum Strength.

Basic Auxiliary Exercises are preformed during a Training Cycle and then temporarily disposed of; replaced it with a new Auxiliary Exercise that is similar in nature to the Competition Lift.

Once the Training Cycle is competed, a new Auxiliary Exercise is implemented.

At some point, an Auxiliary Exercise that was dispose of can employed again.

Changes in exercises are more effective than in loading schemes to improve muscle strength.

I've posted this information several time on this site.

As per the research, one of the keys to increasing Maximum Strength is to change/vary the exercises. In this case that means changing/varying Auxiliary Exercise for Powerlifters.

The same protocol is used by Bodybuilder as a means of increasing muscle mass; attaching the muscles from a different angles.

The General Adaptation Syndrome

The foundation of changing/varying exercise as well as Periodization Training is due to the fact that at some point the body adapts to everything; exercises, calorie intake, etc.

Once adaptation occurs, progress stops.

They do not build strength through doing 1 RM constantly in training.
Mis-interpreted Information

Please re-read the information that I presented.

I never advocated performing 1 RM constantly in training.

I advocated the use of 70 - 80% of 1 RM (as in Anna's post) and 85% plus 1 RM (essentially what Antti stated) for the develop of Technique; not as a means of increasing Maximum Strength.

Brad Arbic' a monster of a lifter with an 800 Ib + deadlift he pretty much refutes what you're saying as far as building strength.
Lost In Translation

Based on your response, I suspect that the information you passed on to Brad was lost in translating it to him. Thus, his response.

As per Kettlebelephant stated, "Nobody here ever said to constantly do 1RM lifts as your training..."

That would be your 1RM that yourself and Antti are talking about.
Taking Point

That is not what Antti nor I were talking about.
 
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Garage Warrior

Double-Digit Post Count
Nobody here ever said to constantly do 1RM lifts as your training...
What we said is heavy singles have their place and are definitely needed to build pure maximal strength.
Even your Brad Arbic agrees with that. A simple google search got me this: 17 Week Block Periodization Powerlifting Peaking Program by Brad Arbic (2020) | Lift Vault
Look at weeks 13-17. Only doubles and singles with 87-105% 1RM .
Don't remember anything about the bit in bold i've highlighted. The post i read said the guy wanted to keep his deadlift moving along. That doesn't and never has needed 1RM training. Most people don't need 1RM training unless they compete. is the guy a competitive lifter? I don't know the answer to that. But the fact remains to build strength 1RM training is a small piece of the training jigsaw. What Brad is talking about is priming the system pre competition to get it used to handling heavy weights. You are misinterpreting the whole idea behind what he's talking about.
 
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kennycro@@aol.com

> 1k Posts
Don't remember anything about the bit in bold i've highlighted.
Your reply was in regard to "Constantly 1 RM" lifting.

The post i read said the guy wanted to keep his deadlift moving along.
Read his post again, it included that he want to ensure the groove/technique was maintained.

What Brad is talking about is priming the system pre competition to get it used to handling heavy weights.
Based on your cursory reading of the information posted, you skipped or overlooked parts of the information presented, RIF.

I suspect Brad reply was base on the misinformation that you provided him.

You are misinterpreting the whole idea behind what he's talking about.
Base on the information that you provided, Kettlebelephant's reply was correct.
 
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Steve Freides

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A few posts were deleted and this thread is now closed.

-S-
 
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