Barbell Deadlifting options

[ali]

I'm approaching a period where I'm switching stuff up for a bit - knocking back on sprint training intensity.
Having had great success with swings and get ups as a moderate daily regime I fancy a change.....really to see where it takes me before I introduce more speed and intensity again, at which point I'll back off from strength a tad. So deadlifting 6 weeks, then kb double squats and presses for 6 weeks, or when appropriate, or S&S, I'll see.
What programming options have I for DLs twice a week, please?
I had a short and sweet intro into DLs a couple years back, just once a week when I had a freebie access to a gym, building up to 110kg for 5 reps a la pttp progression, as a tester in a way. I'm 78kg, call it 80, 120 being 1.5 bw, which would have been achievable probably. So looking at a steady progression in a similar fashion. As pttp is almost daily, maybe isn't the thing. I'll need a gym space and twice a week is probably my limit, time availability issue. Am I totally wrong in thinking a linear progression up to the point of not making the lift, backing off and starting a cycle again is a worthwhile pursuit? Or am I better going for greater intensity of 1RM? Or better still a DL twice a week plan? Welcome any thoughts and insights. Thank you.

 

[Antti]

If you don't do anything that intensive on other days I think you're fine deadlifting hard twice a week.

I think a linear progression is a good idea, but I'm not sure if it's necessary to go to failure. Maybe increase weight every week, but start at a higher rep range and just go naturally down in set length when the sets become too hard to keep form on all reps. Like when you can't any more do five good reps, do sets of four and keep increasing the weight modestly every session. Then sets of three when four is too much, etc. Maybe pick a goal and go back from it in 2,5kg increments to find your starting point.

 

[ali]

Thanks @Antti ......if lifting hard, or intense, what would higher reps imply, 5 x 2-3 or more volume than that?
It is something I'll need to experiment with a bit really as my sprint programme is 12 weeks, low(er) intensity the first 6. And, as I haven't done it before will need to keep an eye on overall load. I'd like to pitch towards a 2x bodyweight but dunno if that is achievable in that time period. I know of a Barry Ross DL programme but that is 3 consecutive days a week which I can't do, or unlikely to anyway, which is 85-90%. Is that the level of intensity, or thereabouts? cheers

 

[Steve Freides]

Surovetsky DL Cycle / Program questions

-S-

 

[Steve Freides]

Surovetsky's Powerlifting Programs | WODdrive.com

-S-

 

[Antti]

Thanks @Antti ......if lifting hard, or intense, what would higher reps imply, 5 x 2-3 or more volume than that?
It is something I'll need to experiment with a bit really as my sprint programme is 12 weeks, low(er) intensity the first 6. And, as I haven't done it before will need to keep an eye on overall load. I'd like to pitch towards a 2x bodyweight but dunno if that is achievable in that time period. I know of a Barry Ross DL programme but that is 3 consecutive days a week which I can't do, or unlikely to anyway, which is 85-90%. Is that the level of intensity, or thereabouts? cheers

It's hard to say what's the right amount for you. In a short cycle of six weeks I think five reps is the place to start. I'd aim at something like 15-30 reps in total for a session, including warm-up. It'll be more in the beginning of the cycle and less by the end.

I think double bodyweight is likely too much of a goal for such a short cycle, but of course, it depends.

I think 85-90% is far too much for sets of five and too much to start at. In the classic examples of cycles the lifter doesn't spend more than a few sessions at 90% or over. But for someone who hasn't done deadlifts a lot the 1RM may develop so quickly that the percentage driven approach may not be that fruitful in any case. That's why I recommended to simply concentrate on the weight on the bar.

As for the intensity guideline, challenge yourself, get uncomfortable, but don't let the form deteriorate or bite more than you can chew.

 

[ali]

Great @Steve Freides, thanks ...Looks like that's handcrafted especially for me!
And @Antti, absolutely makes sense. Looking forward to getting stuck in.....a few weeks yet.
Much appreciated gentlemen.

 

[Kyle Kowalczuk]

When I am busy during the year (teacher) I can only get on a barbell 2x per week and I choose the deadlift because of the tsc. Other days are heavy pressing and S&S.

With that in mind I’ve used the conjugate method and had great success. It involves a max effort day and a dynamic effort day. Which is perfect since I had only two days. Ideally these two days should be at least 72 hours apart. You would alternate deadlift variations every 2 sessions of each. With this my DL rep pr has gotten to 450x8

 

[ali]

Thanks @Kyle Kowalczuk.... Good to know.

 

[TwoRepCave]

As a novice level lifter I've started settling into a routine where I do something like you describe. I dead once or twice a week and spend however many weeks it takes to find my 5RM, then I back off the weight to 80% of my 5RM, increase the reps and sets, and work up to it again and try to beat it.

On the last couple sets I'll do a 5 rep set and then AMRAP of the same weight or 5 lbs more.

I've tried following other programs, but there's something about this that keeps me feeling confident and pulling at high intensity.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

On the last couple sets I'll do a 5 rep set and then AMRAP of the same weight or 5 lbs more.

Upside of AMRAP

It is an effective method for increasing Strength.

Downside of AMRAP

You'll develop poor technique in your Deadlift with this method. As muscle fatigue sets in, your movement pattern changes. The focus is on getting the weight any way you can.

The Auxiliary Exercise Solutions

To ensure you increase your Deadlift Strength and avoid developing poor technique, perform Auxiliary Exercises that are similar in nature.

Examples

1) Back Extensitons

a) 45 Degree Back Extensions

b) 90Degree Back Extensions

2) Good Mornings

Kenny Croxdale

 

[hammor]

I have been doing S&S 5 times a week for a year now. Wanted to add the DL into my training. Bought a used set of barbell & weight set a couple months ago.

Still doing my S&S 5 times a week. DL twice or 3 times a week following the PTTP. I'm 5' 7" and light weight at 135lbs and worked up to a DL of 160lbs x 5 reps. My goal is to work up to 270lbs (2 times my bodyweight), which is not a lot of weight to lift compared to all the monster weight people lift in the strongfirst forum.

After adding the DL into my program I felt my 1 arm kettlebell swing getting stronger, I was able to drive my hip with more power.

So for me S&S + DL 2-3 times a week is doable. I also do a lot of yoga and dead hang to stretch out the back and shoulder.

 

[TwoRepCave]

Upside of AMRAP

It is an effective method for increasing Strength.

Downside of AMRAP

You'll develop poor technique in your Deadlift with this method. As muscle fatigue sets in, your movement pattern changes. The focus is on getting the weight any way you can.

The Auxiliary Exercise Solutions

To ensure you increase your Deadlift Strength and avoid developing poor technique, perform Auxiliary Exercises that are similar in nature.

Examples

1) Back Extensitons

a) 45 Degree Back Extensions

b) 90Degree Back Extensions

2) Good Mornings

Kenny Croxdale

Great advice, Kenny!

I actually don't go 100% for the AMRAP. With deadlifts I've hurt my back a couple times in the past by venturing into too heavy weight with bad form, and I don't want to repeat that and be uncomfortable for 2-3 months again and not be able to deadlift. Now I go intense but keep good form and am happy to stop short of failure even if I feel like I have another rep in me. I'm happy if I can just make an improvement over last week, and if not, I'll accept temporary defeat and drop the weight way down next time.

A lot of that for me is mental. If I fail at improving at a lift for two weeks in a row, I'd rather drop the weight back down 20% and be able to "improve" from that lower weight the week after. Otherwise a mental roadblock gets created for me and I get too burned out pounding my head against the same weight every week. Even if pounding against the plateau until I succeed were to work, I'll dread the next week and doubt whether I can do it, and I have enough things to worry about!

Probably not the quickest way to gain strength, but it makes me happy, and I'm not competing against anyone else.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I actually don't go 100% for the AMRAP. With deadlifts I've hurt my back a couple times in the past by venturing into too heavy weight with bad form, and I don't want to repeat that and be uncomfortable for 2-3 months again and not be able to deadlift. Now I go intense but keep good form and am happy to stop short of failure even if I feel like I have another rep in me.

Lower Back

As you found out, the lower back is quickly and easily overtrained; going short of failure is a good plan.

Good Form

The issue with performing any lift is that your technique changes a little with each repetition, as the muscle fatigue.

That is one of the issue with Powerlifter who's training revolves around using the Squat, Bench Press and Deadlift as training exercises. I addressed that in my previous post.

If I fail at improving at a lift for two weeks in a row, I'd rather drop the weight back down 20% and be able to "improve" from that lower weight the week after.

Periodization Training

This method works for everyone. It is a key component for long term results.

It revolves around Progressive Planned Training Cycles, with a planned beginning and end.

A light load is performed in an exercise each week. The following week, the load is increased, with the final week being an intensive all out effort.

The all out effort is then followed by dramatically decreasing the load and perhaps exercise and starting all over with a light easy training session.

Active Recovery

Progressive overload is used to simulate strength or size. Active Recovery (decreasing the load and working back up past it) is where supercompensation occurs; strength and size increase.

Plan Your Work, Work Your Plan

Periodization Training amount to planned periods of recover with progressive intense training. In the long run, it produces more effective results.

While you method will provide some results, it only going to take you so far.

There are some good article on Periodization Training Program online that will help you.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[ali]

Some feedback on the Surovetsky as a recommendation from @Steve Freides, thank you Steve and thanks to everyone for all the valuable info given to me.
To recap....I had done 5 reps at 110kg almost 2 years ago. I had never deadlifted before and this recent 9 weeks was the first time since that. I based a 1RM and percentages thereof of 120kg. @Antti recommended not to be feared of altering the weights as cruise along and took that on board as really didn't know if that base was accurate or not, or doable or not.
So after the 9 weeks today was my 1RM test day. The final heavy lift was 3 sets of 2 at 126kg - and again after a question to Steve - went for a 135 and this was how it went:

135
140
145
150 nope.

It was a bit odd as the 145 went fine and figured I'd make the 150 but no, not to be. Really I have no idea if that represents a typical 1RM based off a 120 start point (roughly 20%) but quite pleased with the progress nonetheless. Not sure either if my approach to testing like that was the right one and perhaps I could have gone heavier in the training. I'm 78kg so 156 would have been a double so that gives me great confidence for the next time I do the cycle which I will at some point next year.
Again, the help and tips were much appreciated. Cheers.

edit: no belt and all double overhand grip. I remember the previous deadlifts that I needed to change my grip but not this time.

 

[Oscar]

That's awesome @ali , congrats on the PR!

I'm 78kg so 156 would have been a double so that gives me great confidence for the next time I do the cycle which I will at some point next year.

And congrats on the patience, I would be jumping into my next cycle to reach 156 if I was in your shoes

 

[Antti]

Some feedback on the Surovetsky as a recommendation from @Steve Freides, thank you Steve and thanks to everyone for all the valuable info given to me.
To recap....I had done 5 reps at 110kg almost 2 years ago. I had never deadlifted before and this recent 9 weeks was the first time since that. I based a 1RM and percentages thereof of 120kg. @Antti recommended not to be feared of altering the weights as cruise along and took that on board as really didn't know if that base was accurate or not, or doable or not.
So after the 9 weeks today was my 1RM test day. The final heavy lift was 3 sets of 2 at 126kg - and again after a question to Steve - went for a 135 and this was how it went:

135
140
145
150 nope.

It was a bit odd as the 145 went fine and figured I'd make the 150 but no, not to be. Really I have no idea if that represents a typical 1RM based off a 120 start point (roughly 20%) but quite pleased with the progress nonetheless. Not sure either if my approach to testing like that was the right one and perhaps I could have gone heavier in the training. I'm 78kg so 156 would have been a double so that gives me great confidence for the next time I do the cycle which I will at some point next year.
Again, the help and tips were much appreciated. Cheers.

edit: no belt and all double overhand grip. I remember the previous deadlifts that I needed to change my grip but not this time.

Congratulations on the development! 20% is a lot.

It takes only a little mistake in technique to miss a lift when you're close to your max. I wouldn't sweat the 150kg lift.

Still, I think 5kg increases are too small for you. The next time, aim for 10kg or so. You waste too much energy ramping up to your top weight with too small increases.

 

[ali]

The next time, aim for 10kg or so. You waste too much energy ramping up to your top weight with too small increases.

Ah, good point, never considered that. Something for next time.

And congrats on the patience, I would be jumping into my next cycle to reach 156 if I was in your shoes

I have a plan already for the rest of the year. If I didn't then maybe I would take a little break and restart.

Thanks team.

 

[Steve Freides]

You planned the work then you worked the plan - nice going, and congratulations.

-S-

 

[ali]

2 days on and I'm pretty knackered and eating loads.
Had a long easy dog walk yesterday and today feel like my inner circuitry has been battered, goes with the territory? Don't know if I read it here but 1RM testing demands 4 days off....is that about right?