all posts post new thread

Kettlebell Deadlifts VS Squat: Which best supplements KB training?

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
The TGU stand up and down feels to me like a squat where one leg is in front of the other rather than a lunge.
 
The deadlift trains more muscles of the body, I'd think. It's got more upper body involvement than the squat. If you're doing squats you'll need to supplement them with some kind of upper body pulling movements and also pushing movement. If you're doing the deadlift then only pushing movements are needed to hit the rest of your major muscle groups.

I'm biased being a judoka. In terms of practical strength needed for my sport, while squats are certainly helpful they pale in comparison to the practical pulling strength of deadlifts and swings.

Pavel's thought is I think quite clear on this. I agree with him too that having huge quads is counterproductive since you'll chafe your skin.

The deadlift just activates more muscles more than the squat, and it joins the entire body more tightly together in the effort. It's more practical and linked strength.
 
Kozushi said:
Pavel's thought is I think quite clear on this. I agree with him too that having huge quads is counterproductive since you'll chafe your skin.
Click to expand...
I used to come back from runs with bloody UDTs from sand and chaffing. A lot of jokes at my expense but I have a nice collection of pearls.
 
Sauli said:
Littlebit off-topic, but deadlifted 150 kilos yesterday in powerlifting, weightlifting and kB sport meet. It was pretty much my first time ever doing barbell deadlifts. So carryover from kbs to deadlift is pretty high. Pick both.
Click to expand...
I jumped from doing the S&S swing routine with the 32kg to over 300lbs deadlift pretty quickly, so I agree that there is indeed "virtual weight" being moved in the swing, compounded with the hip hinge movement that is important to deadlifting.
 
Kozushi said:
The deadlift trains more muscles of the body, I'd think. It's got more upper body involvement than the squat. If you're doing squats you'll need to supplement them with some kind of upper body pulling movements and also pushing movement. If you're doing the deadlift then only pushing movements are needed to hit the rest of your major muscle groups
Click to expand...
Deadlift has a short range of motion compared to the squat. So you cannot really compare them as equally effective leg exercises and bring up pushing a pulling supplementation. Deadlifts may be covering the pulls, but they are not covering the squat itself.

As far as upper body and general muscle involvement go that is also debatable which is better. There simply is not a single muscle in the body that is not tense under a heavy bar in the back squat. The systemic effect is like no other. The upper back is involved a lot in the deadlift and lower back is in the back squat. Each is uniquely beneficial.
 
IonRod said:
Deadlift has a short range of motion compared to the squat. So you cannot really compare them as equally effective leg exercises and bring up pushing a pulling supplementation. Deadlifts may be covering the pulls, but they are not covering the squat itself.

As far as upper body and general muscle involvement go that is also debatable which is better. There simply is not a single muscle in the body that is not tense under a heavy bar in the back squat. The systemic effect is like no other. The upper back is involved a lot in the deadlift and lower back is in the back squat. Each is uniquely beneficial.
Click to expand...
I've never given the heavily weighted squat much importance in my workouts, so I can't gauge their benefits from personal experience. I suppose I've been persuaded by Pavel's Strongfirst theories as to the concept of big push and big pull covering everything. I suppose the deadlift here is of course the big pull but a squat is certainly a big push. I've often wondered if there is a hole in my judo game due to my neglect of squats.
 
Kozushi said:
I've often wondered if there is a hole in my judo game due to my neglect of squats.
Click to expand...
I've always believed that most of your prowess and explosiveness needed for martial arts came from the hips. That's where explosive hip hinges (like swings) can help. Having said that, you have to operate from a stable base (your legs). This is where squats can help. You should also consider isometrics too. Back in my younger years I found that the static stance training in karate would carry over into judo. Try sitting in a deep (talking Shotokan deep) horse stance and front stance for sets of 2 or 3 minutes. Once that becomes easy, load it up with a weight vest or hand held weights. Feel the burn.

Isometrics don't get talked about much, but they do work.
 
Papa Georgio said:
I've always believed that most of your prowess and explosiveness needed for martial arts came from the hips. That's where explosive hip hinges (like swings) can help. Having said that, you have to operate from a stable base (your legs). This is where squats can help. You should also consider isometrics too. Back in my younger years I found that the static stance training in karate would carry over into judo. Try sitting in a deep (talking Shotokan deep) horse stance and front stance for sets of 2 or 3 minutes. Once that becomes easy, load it up with a weight vest or hand held weights. Feel the burn.

Isometrics don't get talked about much, but they do work.
Click to expand...
Yes, I've discovered exactly this fact of carry over from Karate to judo training. Karate helped me quite a lot and I actually consider myself a karateka also, believe it or not.
 
Kozushi said:
I've never given the heavily weighted squat much importance in my workouts, so I can't gauge their benefits from personal experience. I suppose I've been persuaded by Pavel's Strongfirst theories as to the concept of big push and big pull covering everything. I suppose the deadlift here is of course the big pull but a squat is certainly a big push. I've often wondered if there is a hole in my judo game due to my neglect of squats.
Click to expand...
I am the same way - I was super sceptical about the effects of back squat until I added them to my training. Now I am converted.
Here is what 2 of the greatest authorities in strength training have to say about them:

The traditional favorite in the squat category, the barbell back squat has a remarkable carryover to a lot things. The easiest way to improve your jump is to push up your back squat. The squat will even improve the press, and not just through the systemic effect and pushing up the body weight. When the bar is heavy and you are holding it right, you are performing an isometric press behind the neck. And you are doing it in the stretched position which, according to research on isometrics, has the greatest carryover to the full ROM.

The back squat is a moderately difficult skill to learn. The biggest flaw of the back squat is that it really tightens up the hip flexors, as it does not allow you to fully extend the hips at the top (you would drop the bar behind you). For an athlete, this is a big deal.

But if your goal is muscle mass, first and foremost, then the back squat wins hands down, as my other preferred squats do not allow you to safely hold the weight for many sets and reps. A good choice for many would be to spend most of their squatting time on the soon-to-be-announced winner in the category—plus a couple of six-week “bulking” cycles of back squats each year.

-Pavel
Click to expand...

There is simply no other exercise, and certainly no machine, that produces the level of central nervous system activity, improved balance and coordination, skeletal loading and bone density enhancement, muscular stimulation and growth, connective tissue stress and strength, psychological demand and toughness, and overall systemic conditioning than the correctly performed full squat.

-Rippetoe
Click to expand...
 
IonRod said:
I am the same way - I was super sceptical about the effects of back squat until I added them to my training. Now I am converted.
Here is what 2 of the greatest authorities in strength training have to say about them:
Click to expand...

I just attended the SF barbell course and the instructor was persuasive in arguing that double KB front squat is a fantasic exercise as is the KB press for the general population but the metabolic effect of barbell work is much greater so KB work may be sufficient, but it is not a true substitute for barbell work. I am going to work on my KB squat and press patterns and thoratic mobility and add the barbell squat next year. I already deadlift.
 
IonRod said:
I am the same way - I was super sceptical about the effects of back squat until I added them to my training. Now I am converted.
Here is what 2 of the greatest authorities in strength training have to say about them:
Click to expand...
That's pretty convincing.
 
guardian7 said:
I just attended the SF barbell course and the instructor was persuasive in arguing that double KB front squat is a fantasic exercise as is the KB press for the general population but the metabolic effect of barbell work is much greater so KB work may be sufficient, but it is not a true substitute for barbell work. I am going to work on my KB squat and press patterns and thoratic mobility and add the barbell squat next year. I already deadlift.
Click to expand...
Well, I've been seeing this firsthand comparing deadlifts to swings. Deadlifts do lack the cardio aspect of swings, but otherwise beat them hands down. I can get stronger in much less time and with much less effort with deadlifts than with swings. However, the cardio aspect isn't nothing. I think as @Steve Freides said somewhere, barbell and long easy distance work is non-negotiable, but kettlebells just make everything a lot better. This makes a lot of sense to me now.

Now, getting the bar onto my back seems a bit annoying, so I hope the double kettlebell squat is indeed "sufficient".
 
Kozushi said:
Well, I've been seeing this firsthand comparing deadlifts to swings. Deadlifts do lack the cardio aspect of swings, but otherwise beat them hands down. I can get stronger in much less time and with much less effort with deadlifts than with swings. However, the cardio aspect isn't nothing. I think as @Steve Freides said somewhere, barbell and long easy distance work is non-negotiable, but kettlebells just make everything a lot better. This makes a lot of sense to me now.

Now, getting the bar onto my back seems a bit annoying, so I hope the double kettlebell squat is indeed "sufficient".
Click to expand...

I agree. The deadlift was recommended as the lift everybody should train because not only is it effective and a natural movement, (look how toddlers pick things up before they unlearn the pattern) but also requires less of a learning curve, requires less mobility, and safer for the general population. I would add that the DL does not require a squat rack, so it is may be optimal for those without a rack at home or in a busy gym when all the racks are taken. I KB squat but DL.
 
guardian7 said:
I agree. The deadlift was recommended as the lift everybody should train because not only is it effective and a natural movement, (look how toddlers pick things up before they unlearn the pattern) but also requires less of a learning curve, requires less mobility, and safer for the general population. I would add that the DL does not require a squat rack, so it is may be optimal for those without a rack at home or in a busy gym when all the racks are taken. I KB squat but DL.
Click to expand...
Agree with all points except "natural". I hate that term when applied to movements. There is nothing more or less "natural" about a deadlift or the squat or a Jefferson curl or a snatch or a getup or even *gasp* a leg press machine. These are all movements that humans do depending on the task. We are supremely adaptable creatures and as long as a movement can be performed without structural damage, it is "natural". How effective it is, that's a different question and will depend on what goals you have.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom