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Other/Mixed Decisions, decisions, decisons...

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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Have not. But I think to go step by step i.e. first be able to do completely unloaded squats and dl's with no issues, first in grease the groove mode, the setsXreps, then start in on swings. Coming to a training venue near me, soon...
 
@GeoffreyLevens, the swing is our most basic, core, important exercise. I highly recommend learning it in person from someone qualified to teach it (or, if you must, via Skype).

-S-
 
Steve, I agree. But it requires the ability to hold tension and stabilize your frame first in order to use good form. I have done swings for years up to 24 kg one handed and uneven 24/16 kg, with no issues at all. There are deeper issues afoot and I need to address those first. I just was searching and found a gym a couple hours away that uses kb's and emailed me to find out whether they are hardstyle or gs, I suspect the latter but will know soon enough.

First things first though..
 
Ok, backstory. I was avoiding posting this because a bit too "weird" but here 'tis:

I have had a fairly intensive meditation practice going (average 2 hours/day with some long retreats along the way) for a bit over 50 years. During that time, on several occasions, very old issues from early childhood etc have surfaced from deep down to be worked on and resolved. I think this is one of those. When I first learned to walk and for many years after my feet were turned out at probably a 60 degree angle with big time pronation and of course stress on the knees. I still remember as a very young child, lying on the floor crying while my mother would massage the cramps out of my legs. Of course doctors wanted to do mutilating surgery but my mother was too smart for them (THANK YOU MOM!!!!). I got orthotics sometime during elementary school (stainless steel in those days) which solved the pain issue at least; a worthy bandaid. When I was about 23 I ditched my then plastic orthotics and worked hard to train myself to hold proper foot/ankle posture all the time. Back then I did not realize that hips were likely a prime culprit and so did not work on them That worked surprisingly well. Until it didn't i.e. lack of hip/glute stability caused constant low grade torque on my knee when snowboarding which led to pretty badly torn cartilage and surgery.

I think that what has been going on the past few years is that meditation has "unhooked" many of my compensations, at least under sudden stress, and now I get to deal with the actual issue(s). Part of that is training the real physical roots in the hip, appropriate glute activation and stretching out of hip flexors. I suspect there my be emotional bits that come lose as I go. I have some other physical things going on that are not so directly involved in training but have their effect and I suspect they are also connected--fairly recently (when I was working up in weight with snatches) discovered that my lower abdominals would shut off at the bottom of swings and snatches. I managed to train that out I think... Several moving pieces at any rate, and all need addressing now.
 
It seems that a highly loadable barbell would not be terribly valuable for your situation and perhaps simply reinforce or exacerbate poor movement issues. To Steve F.'s reinforcement, it seems like 2H swings and goblet squats would be the best correctives and wouldn't cost a dime.
 
Like most people who frequent this forum I migrate from one goal to another; sometimes using barbells, then kettlebell or both or maybe bodyweight. As I move towards my 40th birthday I see myself using KB as the predominant tool for all of my needs. This isn't a blind, dogmatic belief in the miraculous power of the kettlebell. It just affirms the ability of the kettlebell to allow me to retain decent levels of power and strength and still have time to spend with my 3 daughters.
With barbell I know my ego gets involved. I chase plates and there is a recovery cost to be paid. With the KB I don't chase kgs, I tend to be on the moment and consciously drill cues to help with the moment.
@GeoffreyLevens I would run with Steve's suggestion of swings and walking.
Good luck buddy
 
My 2cents......just in case you wanted to try the barbell stuff, you could get a trial one month membership at most gyms for $10-$20 dollars....then you haven't blown a big investment on something that might not work out for you.

Carl in Dover
 
Excellent points above about ego. Always a bit of a battle with me no matter what I am doing but much better lately.

Swings/goblet squats are great correctives but NOT if doing them aggravates the situation. There is an order to these things. You have to go as far back, as deep and soft as necessary to from a base, then on to the next step and then the next, stabilizing each as you go. Reading through Egoscue book that was recommended to me pre-therapy, what he seems to be doing for valgus knees, is totally unloaded, not even weight of torso, contraction and relaxation alternating of isolated glutes, then hip flexors, longish sets. That is the direction my PT was going and it did help but she had very low load on and I think no load at all is where I need to start. I have been experimenting and find it easy to flex glutes if very slightly loaded, like lying prone and lifting straight let towards ceiling from hip. I did have problem with it at first and that is where she started me. I can do that fine. But just flexing the glute, with no stimulus signal from any load I find incredibly difficult. that tells me that is more of a working edge. Ballistics like swings or even slow controlled load like goblet squats, over rides the problem area in me, I need to go all the way back, in a sense to infancy, and connect the wiring from zero. THEN loading with light then heavier squats and THEN...after that...ballistics.

The more I read between the lines about barbells vs kettlebells, what Conner78 said above seems more and more true. Barbells/dumbbells give only compressive load while kb's do a lot of stretching joints open. So if properly done and programmed, kb work contains a lot of its own recovery if that makes sense.

Barbells are better for getting "big" I know but I don't really need that, just strong and healthy fibers, densely packed and with lots of healthy mitochondria. So longer term A+A swings or snatches seem like a worthy goal to me.

I was having great fun and making good progress with A+A snatches when this blew up on me. I started with a 12 kg bell, enough to feel but plenty light enough to overpower if I got into trouble (I weight about 120 or a bit less). Used that to regroove the pattern since I had not snatched in quite a few years doing only swings, getups and grinds. I had worked up to sets of 5 with 20 kg for 40-45 minutes with no problems at all and was enjoying it a lot. Then knee started to flair up. Then a couple injuries outside training tossed me off the cliff so to speak.

Just following the trail of popcorn through the woods now. Headed back...and per the orthopod, it appears the Wicked Witch won't be eating me any time soon :)
 
Thanks Carl. That did cross my mind. And surprisingly there is one in my tiny town, walking distance from my apartment. As I mentioned above, base building, grinds before ballistics so when I get to that point, I may just go there for couple months even and do dl's and front squats past the weigh I'd do with kb's, then return to ballistics with the bells.
 
Ballistics can be very irritating to injuries (recently recovering a mild hamstring tear myself) but if goblet squats and swings aggravate your issue, I wouldn't get into heavier front squats and deadlifts as an alternative.
 
I read all of DJ' S work and Dan really hammers the point about goal setting. Inspite of this clarity I really believe that many of us, myself included muddle around chasing bodybuilder physiques, mobility that a double jointed Yogi would envy and the work capacity of a Tour De France winner. That's why S/S is so powerful. It gives you the chance to remain strong and healthy and still function as a husband,wife etc.
 
No, no, those are not the alternative, they are a later progression starting with totally deloaded isolated muscle contractions and relaxations in alternation to reprogram nervous system. Next comes contraction with movement patterns. Then finally I will get to lightly loaded movement patterns. Then and only then, gradually adding weight. When/if I can do many sets/reps of slow movements with plenty of weight, then very light ballistics and so on. Each step is predicated on high volume work with ZERO problems at all the steps before it. What I am looking for now, and hope Egoscue can provide is a fundamental enough layer of muscle/nervous system work to reprogram and "hook up" certain muscle groups that have more or less gone off line.
 
Saw Egoscue trainer this morning. Always interesting to see someone clearly an expert who is easily young enough to be my daughter!

Initial eval much like Rolfing i.e. photos front, back, and both sides wearing only shorts. This is then held up to grid of "ideal" posture. Also walking while she watched.

1st level to address is to relax/undo all the compensations I have taught myself and then 2nd really at same time, wake up the sleepers and the comatose. There are a number of issues but the main ones are that my hip flexors are shrunken leather tight and almost completely offline, esp psoas and that my thoracic erector spinae are locked in overdrive taken most of the load. Glutes not firing is likely fall out from the hip flexor issue but regardless, advice was for 2 weeks do only the menu of exercises she prescribes and see what happens the progressive adding of load. She thought a lot of this may have come from my not crawling as an infant. She guessed that and indeed, I skipped that and went up on hands and feet like a spider right from the start. Why waste time on slow mo when you can charge around like a wee, chubby rocket, right? The crawling establishes the pelvic orientation and from that comes the proper balance of function between hip flexors and extensors. And that is for me. There are, of course other patterns with other causes.

She is a exercise/sports maniac, snowboarder etc so totally with the program of weights and kettlebells and every other kind of strength and endurance training. Her motto is "88 is the new 30" and that we should be able to do pretty much whatever we wish at any age. The key is to get the fundamental structure/function sound first. Sound familiar? Heh.

So the fun continues!
 
@GeoffreyLevens, FWIW, I also skipped crawling entirely.

-S-
And as I recall you have had some severe lumbar disc issues? I don't know the reality but she would say that was likely the original cause, start of a cascade over time. Her brother in law same deal. He's in early 30's and in constant pain. She is trying to get him and her sis to coax their baby into crawling since the baby only wants to scoot and not crawl. I think one way or another these things do get handed down generationally.
 
Been doing the Egoscue training for about 7 weeks. Was instructed at outset, no kettlebells or weights, only bodyweight work. So have been doing circuit of squats (which I could not do without aggravating knee but now can do Bulgarian split squats etc), single leg hip bridges, L-sit, dive bomber or pike push ups, horizontal pull ups (working regressions on one arm version).

Got cleared for KB work. This morning first go. Before was doing A+A snatch protocol w/ 16 kg as working bell and contemplating trying a few reps w/ 20 kg.. This morning started with 12 kg to find the groove, then 16 kg for couple sets, then tried 20 kg and managed 4 sets of 3 snatches+2 swings. PR of sorts. Total 22 sets. Even though I was sort of feeling my way, experimenting with slight variations in the drop esp, I felt a lot more confident than before. I think just more embodied or something like that.

I quit TGU's many months ago as they were giving my knee fits. This morning did several with just shoe balanced on fist. Easy and pain free. Interestingly, very noticeably more aware of internal body mechanics than before. I had thought I was doing them well but today could tell I was almost "faking it" with the leg drive in roll to elbow step. The entire sequence was a lot more conscious and precise. Tomorrow will load it and do TGU's and pullups only.

I'm a happy camper!
 
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