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Kettlebell Defending the Swing

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To quote Patrick Swayze in RoadHouse: "Opinions vary..."

There is no need to defend the swing.

The perspective of "avoiding momentum" etc... tells you all you need to know.
 
I often think of how some of the things that get said in the fitness world would play out in the world - my world - of musical instruction. No one seems to care about whether or not I teach professional musicians. And FWIW, I did teach people who went on to become professional musicians when I was a college professor, and part of the reason I left was that I found I much more enjoyed helping people understand and embrace the basics rather than helping polish someone who was already at a high level. I think whether or not someone works with professionals can be a pretty silly metric if what's you're after is improving your non-professional-level self. Furthermore, many non-fitness-related occupations can and do have a higher purpose, just as we talk about strength having here at StrongFirst.

-S-
Indeed. And I'm guessing you can play various instruments much better than the above Doc can swing a bell.
 
I have been guilty of this myself, but I'd like to draw attention to the apparent ease of which many of us feel called to "defend" various things we believe in from weak assertions unsupported in any argumentation. Recently there was also a thread spurned by some youtubers badmouthing kettlebells, and some time before, a discussion of Steve Maxwell ranting how Pavel is a scammer and kettlebells are bad because they knocked out one of his teeth trespassed on his lawn supposedly are responsible for some people's surgeries (including ones unrelated to the musculoskeletal system). Each time, counter-arguments are attempted to something that is barely an argument to begin with.

If I post a thread right now claiming, say, kettlebell snatches are bad because they violate my "rule of never letting a weight flip over your wrist", would anyone attempt to actually debate me? Sure, I'm just some anonymous gander on an online board, but at least since I'm here there is some chance I've actually read anything about kettlebells before supplying my opinion.

To answer the original question, I'd say there's no flaw in this author's reasoning - because there's is no reasoning at all, just a couple of vague assertions strung together, namely: that fast lifting is always wrong (because it's a "rule"), that "swinging" a weight is a sign of poor form (maybe if the lift was called "Russian pull-through" there would be less of an issue?), and that "catching" a weight (whatever that one means) generates too much force (too much relative to what? Does even a 4 kg swing generate too much?).
 
I'd say there's no flaw in this author's reasoning - because there's is no reasoning at all, just a couple of vague assertions strung together
I’d say that IS the flaw in his “reasoning.” The reason I think it is worth criticizing is because it creates confusion and misinformation for people who just want to exercise and get healthy. It amounts to people (in this case the Dr) not fully understanding the thing they are talking about before they criticize it, usually by looking at it in very black-and-white terms. When people use very black and white terms to argue against something, it is usually paired with an “argument” FOR whatever they are trying to sell you or get you to do.

Let me be clear that I am not against supporting one’s product or method by discussing how it works and the benefits it may provide. I am against vague, blanket statements that do nothing except create a fear in the audience/consumer in order to sell a product/method.
 
But but….. chiropractors fix backs lol. I don’t have a dog in this fight. I got recommended all the time to see them and osteopaths when my back gave me jip. I never did. It’s amazing how many people don’t know it’s actually considered Quackery. Lol
but they also say they can treat acid reflux by cracking your spine. also they say they can remove "toxins" from your muscles by scraping your skin really hard with something hard
 
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but they also say they can treat acid reflux by cracking your spine. also they say they can remove "toxins" from your muscles by scraping your skin really hard with something hard
I saw a guy with a bent snib (nose) and the chiropractor was claiming he could fix that by cracking his neck lol there was no query whether a left hook bent the guys beak lol tight muscle was all it was apparently.
 
I think it's always good to practice verbalizing our rationale for why swings are safe and effective.

I still remember what ran through my mind when I first saw kettlebell swings with decently heavy kettlebells. My now dear friends @Al Ciampa and @WxHerk, when Al started the kettlebell gym and training program at the base where I work, and before John and I started training together. I was upstairs in the yoga room looking down on this strange activity which had come to our gym. "OMG, they're going to hurt their backs" is all I could think. It took me a while before I would join the class and try it myself. I had to watch for a few weeks or months to make sure people weren't falling out all over the place. It went against all I thought I knew about safe physical training activity... and I was 45 years old at the time.

We know it's safe and effective. But we tend to forget, in time, what it looks like to those who don't know.
 
Folks, let's avoid discussing whether a particular fitness/health profession is or isn't legit, and the same goes for discussing whether certain fitness/health practitioners are alright or not. We don't say you're wrong ...

-S-
 
Folks, let's avoid discussing whether a particular fitness/health profession is or isn't legit, and the same goes for discussing whether certain fitness/health practitioners are alright or not. We don't say you're wrong ...

-S-
Reminds me of a statement from Mother Teresa when she was asked to attend a rally against a war. She said " No thank you, but I would be happy to attend a rally for peace . "
 
The good doctors conclusions could be based on a serious dose of butt hurt and I will elaborate. I owned kettlebells in Scotland before gyms even knew what they were. I was going for gym instructor jobs and it got to the stage that I had to show pictures on my Motorola flip phone because no one knew what a kettlebell was. Which leads to the next part. I knew a small cadre of people playing soccer, gym rats, rugby players, guys thinking of going into the army etc and I’d invite them to do kettlebells. I found out early that it was a rare person who said “damn I thought I was fit/tough/conditioned and a 16kg weight just hammered me into the ground! This is a keeper for me” and some of they dudes all bought kettlebells and still use them. By and large I encountered a lot of folk who’s ego took a denting in my back garden and they were like “what does this work? Aye but where’s the time under tension? I’m actually fine it’s just my grip, breathing and lower back is shot” etc etc etc. Anyone who doesn’t want to be open about these primitive looking balls of iron and their ego crushing difficulty is always going to find some excuse. Be happy on here that we are folk who are built of the mentality “wow this thing has whooped me! I’m sold”. And I don’t care how many detractors come out the woodwork with all their carefully thought out reasons. I’m 18 years murdering myself with these things, I have zero joint issues other than a mildly cantankerous ankle I dislocated as a climber. Shoulders are fine, elbows are fine. If you spend enough time in this fitness lark and you read enough there’s always someone denouncing some implement for some reason. I just leave them to it.
 
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The reason I think it is worth criticizing is because it creates confusion and misinformation for people who just want to exercise and get healthy.
I agree it does. My concern is that there's a tremendous mismatch in effort required between making such statements as compared criticizing them. In the time it would have taken you to try and disprove my "rule of not letting a weight flip over your wrist" I could, very conservatively speaking, make up another ten vague assertions of this nature. If you would disprove these too, I'd be at hundred or more brand new "rules" at this point. For any outside observer it would look like there's ton of evidence against kettlebells and I would garner increasing amounts of attention from each such polemic. And I don't even have a "Dr." preceding my name.

What I'm getting at is that I think there's an important meta-skill of distinguishing between arguments that can be rationally engaged and empty assertions without any actual content, which, in my opinion, aren't worth legitimizing. Conversely, if someone cannot recognize the latter, they likely won't appreciate the difference between it and your rebuttal, however informative and well thought out it may be.
I think it's always good to practice verbalizing our rationale for why swings are safe and effective.
I think this is a better argument for discussing these types of attacks. However, I still think arguments corresponding to the real world, like your initial worry about kettlebells hurting people's backs (it may be generously assumed this corresponds to the "catching weight force" in the original quote) should be distinguished from pure patter without any factual content (like the rest of the quote). There are many people who may be afraid of the swing being dangerous for your back. However, I don't think anyone would make an abstract "rule" of not lifting fast based on anything remotely factual, and thus I think no amount of arguments can persuade someone out of such a belief.
Obviously you're not some anonymous gander. You're Timothy Gander. Very un-anonymous gander status.
There are many ganders named Timothy out there...
 
I think it's always good to practice verbalizing our rationale for why swings are safe and effective.

I still remember what ran through my mind when I first saw kettlebell swings with decently heavy kettlebells. My now dear friends @Al Ciampa and @WxHerk, when Al started the kettlebell gym and training program at the base where I work, and before John and I started training together. I was upstairs in the yoga room looking down on this strange activity which had come to our gym. "OMG, they're going to hurt their backs" is all I could think. It took me a while before I would join the class and try it myself. I had to watch for a few weeks or months to make sure people weren't falling out all over the place. It went against all I thought I knew about safe physical training activity... and I was 45 years old at the time.

We know it's safe and effective. But we tend to forget, in time, what it looks like to those who don't know.
Anyone ever had a life experience where you are blessed and fortunate enough to know that you are in a very, very special place and moment that is changing you immeasurably and eternally for the better? Where 1 & 1 add up to 3? Such was @Al Ciampa ’s kettlebell class I helped instruct after completing his 6 week instructor course. I distinctly remember @Anna C ’s first time in the class and thinking “that muscular blonde woman is here today.” LITTLE did I know!!

A magical time beyond description…
..and NO!! Nobody’s back was hurt by those big iron balls!!
 
Anyone ever had a life experience where you are blessed and fortunate enough to know that you are in a very, very special place and moment that is changing you immeasurably and eternally for the better? Where 1 & 1 add up to 3? Such was @Al Ciampa ’s kettlebell class I helped instruct after completing his 6 week instructor course.
Yes, indeed it was, and was so transformative for me. I think my most useful life skill has been realizing when I'm in one of those moments and acting upon it. "See Clearly; Act Courageously" - Dustin Rippetoe. You have to be paying attention and discern the extraordinary from the ordinary, you have to have room in your life to accept something new, and you have to know you're able and worthy of being changed for the better by whatever it brings. Grateful that it brought me to where I am today.
 
Greetings. I'm enjoying a book, Pillars of Wellness, by Dr. Matt Chalmers, which has some great advice regarding health, nutrition, and fitness except for one thing: attributing to the kettlebell swing a high risk of disc degeneration. I will paste his quote below, and I invite everyone's help in debunking
this reasoning. My guess is that he's basing his theory on what can happen when swings are performed improperly. Since I'm not conversant enough in biomechanics to identify the flaw in the reasoning, though, I wanted to invite comments from experts here on the forum, as well as from those who have been doing swings for decades and can speak from personal experience about the condition of their spine.

"Kettlebell Swing. There is probably no other exercise I tell people to avoid more than this one. This exercise violates the rules of lifting, which are that you must be slow and controlled. If your reps are slow and controlled, you can stop whenever you want. You cannot stop a kettlebell swing. In fact, I often tell people that the number one way to know if you’re not lifting properly is if you are swinging the weight instead of lifting it. If you do a hip pop and then let go of the weight, it would be less of an issue. When you catch the weight, too much force goes into the lower spine and pelvis, which can cause discs to wear down over time and develop issues. Just because you don’t “feel the pop” when you are doing this exercise does not mean that it can’t contribute to an injury or degeneration."--Dr. Matt Chalmers, Pillars of Wellness.
I’ve been watching Dan John complete his 10,000 swing challenge every morning this month on IG live and I have no clue how old he is but he’s not young. I’ve always had back issues, and learning kettlebells has made my back issues much better.
 
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