all posts post new thread

Barbell Depth Landing Strength Training

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

Kenny Croxdale

Level 7 Valued Member
Depth Landing Strength Training

This is an interesting training method that you might consider including in your strength training program at times.

Think of a Depth Landing as a Gymnast sticking the landing in a Vault and the landing in the dismount off the High Bar, or Balance Beam.

Another term that I use to define it is a...

"Ballistic Eccentric Action "

Ballistic meaning the body or an object becomes airborne.

Eccentric meaning the lengthening of the muscle involved in a descending movement.

Think of an Eccentric Action as the Brakes on your car and a Concentric Movement as your Gas Pedal.

Example of Depth Landing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbzJ8cLVp

This video demonstrates a Depth Landing performed by standing on a box, stepping off and sticking the landing.

Triphasic Movement

Most movements in sports and lifting is composed of an...

1) Eccentric Phase: This is the downward movement of the body or in lifting the downward movement of the bar.

2) Isometric Phase: This is the transition phase in which your body or in lifting the downward movement is stopped. You're not going up, nor down. The length of the muscles length isn't changing.

3) Concentric Phase: This is the upward movement of your body or in lifting the upward movement of the bar. The muscle are shortening, contracting.

The Strength of Each Phase

The greater your strength in each phase (Eccentric, Isometric, and Concentric) more force you generate; more power and strength you display, more weight you move.

Fast "Ballistic Eccentrics"

Most are familiar with Slow Eccentric Training. It has its place in training.

However, Fast "Ballistic Eccentric" Training also has its place. It elicits a different training effect.

GREATER HYPERTROPHY WITH FAST ECCENTRIC TEMPOS
Slow eccentrics for growth? - Dan Ogborn


"...Fast eccentrics were superior to slow, increasing strength across the range of concentric and eccentric velocities more so than in slow training. Whole muscle growth was increased in both conditions, however there was a trend for increased growth in the fast eccentric group.

What is the most direct means to achieve strength gains specific to the demands of jumping events? https://www.coachnicknewman.com/upl...rength_training_for_jumpers_-_david_kerin.pdf

David Kerin's (Track Jumping Coach) article is a brilliant piece of work.

One of the main research determinations is that great High Jumpers have exceptional "Ballistic Eccentric Strength".

That meaning they are able to transition from a sprint (stop the fast horizontal movement) via an Eccentric Action, then transfer that momentum to going vertical, up over the bar.

"To be able to exert force, you first have to be able to absorb it."
Jay Schroder

In co-writing an article (with Tom Morris, MS Exercise Physiology) I came across Jay Schroeder's (Strength Coach) use of "Altitude Drops" (aka; Depth Landing or my term, "Ballistic Eccentrics").

I tracked him down, spending an hour going over his use of "Altitude Drops" as a means of increasing Power and Strength.

As per Schroeder's quote, the stronger you Eccentric Strength the faster you can transition to a Concentric Movement with more force, strength and power.

Before moving on, increasing Isometric Strength is also vital. As with Eccentric Training, Isometrics are misunderstood, not utilized enough or correctly used by many.

"Freak of Training"

Jay Schroder's "Freak of Training" video came out years ago and went into "Altitude Drop" Training. Below are some short videos demonstrating some of Schroeder's "Altitude Drop" Training Methods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODLkBcDRDw&list=PL-xNmV8vckU5Hyqd3l4t-ZM7xPY794UIK

My Application and Use of "Altitude Drops"/Depth Landing/"Ballistic Eccentrics"

I used them on an off in my training.

Squat "Altitude Drops"/Depth Landing/"Ballistic Eccentrics"

The loading can be increase by increasing the height of the box that you drop off of. However, since I only have a couple of boxes and a fear of heights, I found holding a dumbbell elicits the same effect.

Holding dumbbells beside you and dropping off works well. My landing is with a medium wide stance wide replicates my Squat Stance.

For the slightly wider stance, I often use a Kettlebell. This allows me to increase my stance width; landing with the Kettlebell between my legs.

Bench Press "Altitude Drops"/Depth Landing/"Ballistic Eccentrics"

The bar is held in a Locked Out Position. You open you hands, drop your arms quickly, allow the bar to drop down to you.

Performing them in a Smith Machine works great. I use a Free Weight bar, since I don't have a Smith at my house.

The video below is demonstrated with Adam Archuleta with 225 lbs; 50 second mark.



I've worked up to a little 100 lbs or but usually use less. I perform them by attaching chains along with loading the bar with plates.

The weight of the bar, plates and chains goes over 100 lbs at times.

Deadlift "Altitude Drops"/Depth Landing/"Ballistic Eccentrics"

Same as the Squat "Altitude Drops"/Depth Landing/"Ballistic Eccentrics" only with a narrower Conventional Deadlifter Stance Landing.

With the narrow Conventional Stance Deadlift landing, I find dumbbells easier.

Recommendations

1) Sets and Reps need to be fairly low. I perform between 3 - 5 sets of 1 - 3 Reps.

2) Start of Light. As with anything new, ease into it. Then increase the loading.

Progressive Loading

In performing "Altitude Drops"/Depth Landing/"Ballistic Eccentrics" a small load can equate to a large load. As Morris and I noted in "Ployometric Bench Pressing for For Strength and Power" with the use of...

The Medicine Ball Power Drop"

"The power drop involves having a training partner drop a medicine ball to you while you are on the floor lying on your back. You catch the medicine ball and immediately propel it as explosively as possible straight up to the ceiling."

Dropping a 10 lb medicine ball 42 inches magnified the weight of the ball to 90 lbs.

With that in mind, in the Squat and Deadlift as well as the Bench Press "Altitude Drops"/Depth Landing/"Ballistic Eccentrics" they are best performed with moderately low increases in loading.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Last edited:
This is super interesting. I've been really curious about the training of athletes lately. Going to follow these links and do some research. Thanks for posting.
 
This is super interesting. I've been really curious about the training of athletes lately.

Depth Landing

Yes, this is very interesting and is an effective method of improving an athletes performance.

The Russian, Jay Schroder (Strength Coach), and David Kerin (High Jump Track Coach) as well as other utilize this method to increase an athlete's performance.

However, for a variety of reason, the majority of individual don't see the value of how eccentric strength contributes to sprints, high jumps (David Kerin's article), etc.

Most of those who lift weighs are concerned with how much weight they can push up. What they don't realize is eccentric strength is one of the determinate factors of how much you can push up in let's say a Squat or a Bench Press.

The Gas Pedal and The Brake

A concentric movement is similar to the Gas Pedal on a car; which help you go faster.

What most don't realize is that having good Brakes (Eccentric Strength) in most sports and lifting is a vital component for speed and strength.

Sprinting

Each foot fall in a sprint produces an impact force of 3 - 5 times your body weight.

Thus, in sprinting, the greater your Eccentric Strength, the faster you can stop the downward movement and transition to Concentric Strength, moving forward faster down the track.

Eccentric Strength is the braking system that increase agility; enabling you to make sharp, hard cuts in a football, soccer game, etc.

Going to follow these links and do some research.

Doing Some Research

That is one of the primary keys to learning and making progress.

1) Scientific Research Data: Reviewing a multitude of science research data.

2) Personal Interviews with Experts: In the past, I'd call them up. These days, I email them.

In all my years of doing this, the majority took time to go into detail with me.

2) Practical Application: This is what I term as, "Earn while you learn." It can be somewhat frustrating at times but it's necessary for really learning something.

It's like the Goldilock's fable; you have to try thing to find out "What just right."

Kenny Croxdale
 
When I was in college, I used to do a lot of box jumps as part of my training for throwing the discus. I came to realize later that just jumping (no box) was a lot harder - and it seems that this ballistic eccentric concept explains clearly why that is.

So, my question becomes - shouldn't we just jump, and get both phases of the movement? Why isolate the eccentric phase? Do people tend to have an imbalance toward the concentric phase?

Like the medicine ball drop example (which, by the way, is crazy fun if you have a good training partner) - you're hitting both phases there, right?
 
When I was in college, I used to do a lot of box jumps as part of my training for throwing the discus. I came to realize later that just jumping (no box) was a lot harder - and it seems that this ballistic eccentric concept explains clearly why that is.

So, my question becomes - shouldn't we just jump, and get both phases of the movement? Why isolate the eccentric phase? Do people tend to have an imbalance toward the concentric phase?

Like the medicine ball drop example (which, by the way, is crazy fun if you have a good training partner) - you're hitting both phases there, right?

Altitude drops allow you to progress to heights that surpass what you can achieve concentrically. Since people are stronger eccentrically than concentrically, just jumping limits you to a concentrically achieved height, so the eccentric force of your landing is limited by what you can generate concentrically. Whereas altitude drops allow you to progress beyond that; you can fall from a height above which you can actively jump to. Even if you load a jump from ground level, the height of your jump and therefore the landing force will be limited by your concentric ability under that load. Part of the idea is that you have to generate/absorb so much force so quickly that your nervous system will organize maximally, without compensations. Obviously it's important to have some training capacity prior to progressing to this. Also part of Schroeder's system are things like long duration isometric holds, most notoriously his lunge version; supported low squat jumps; ankle jumps; russian lunge jumps; etc. It's not a bad idea to make sure your connective tissue is prepared before dropping from high heights.
 
shouldn't we just jump, and get both phases of the movement? Why isolate the eccentric phase? Do people tend to have an imbalance toward the concentric phase?

Brian W provided some good information on this. Let me add to it.

Both Phases

Yes, the Concentric Phase needs to be worked.

The Concentric Phase can be isolated, as well.

Dr. Fred Hatfield (Dr. Squat) 1008lb / 457.2kg squat



Dr Fred Hatfield was at one time, the lightest man to Squat over 1,000 lbs, crushing 1,008 lbs.

Hatfield's Squat Training involved Concentric Only Squats. Hatfield would position the bar in a a Power Rack in a bottom position. Squat the weight up and then allow it to drop; deleting the Eccentric part of the movement.

I employ this method in my Concentric Good Morning Training. However, something that works without causing damage to your Power Rack or Power Bar is the use of Car Straps (Cheaper than Spud Straps). Car Straps hold literally tons of weight.



High-Performance Mass Program: Lats/Biceps Eccentric-less Volume Circuit


This video demonstrates one of Chris Thibaudeau's "Eccentricless Training Sessions; Concentric Only Training.

Concentric Sled Drag


This Sled Drag is a Concentric Only Movement.

Concentric Only Training: Pushing/Pulling a Sled, Deadlifts it is primarily a Concetric Movement with little Eccentric Component, Olympic Pulls, Riding a Bike, etc.

Concentric Only Training Benefits

1) Allows you to increase Concentric Power and Strength dependent the training load.

2) Concentric Only Training enables you to recovery faster. The Eccentric Component produces greater trauma which requires more recovery time. Eccentrics are the primarily reason for Delayed Onset of Muscle Soreness.

Thus, by taking the more traumatic Eccentric Component out of the movement, you recovery faster.

Eccentric (Supra Maximal) Strength

You're Eccentric Strength is around 120% greater than your Concentric Strength.

Bench Press Example

If you can Concentrically (drive up) Bench Press 300 lbs for 1 Repetition, that means you Eccentric Strength (amount of weight you can lower in a controlled manner) is approximately lower 360 lbs (300 lbs X 120%).

Eccentric "Supra Maximal" Strength applies to Depth Landing, as well.

Triphasic Movement

The majority of movement in sports is Triphasic.

It involves phases.

1) Eccentric Movement: The downward movement (lengthening of the muscles).

a) The faster you can stop the downward movement in jumping, running, etc., the faster you can transition to going up/forward.

b) Also, the greater your Eccentric Strength, the slower you can lower the weight in a heavy Squat and Bench Press.

By lowering the weight slower, decrease the reversal force needed to drive the weight back up.

Research (McLaughlin) demonstrate that Novice Lifter lowered the bar faster than Elite Lifters. The reversal force Novice Lifters needed in a 300 lb Bench Press was 149% more than the bar weight, (447 lbs).

The reversal force Elite Lifter needed in a 300 lb Bench Press was 112% more than the bar weight, 336 lbs.

2) Isometric Action: The muscle is held in a constant state, it isn't shortened (Concentric) nor lengthened (Eccentric).

This part of the Triphasic Phase is the transition point between the Eccentric Movement and the Concentric Contraction.

The greater you Isometric Strength, the faster you can and will transition from Eccentric To Concentric.

..."To stop the movement in one direction and before initiating movement in the other direction, the muscles undergo an isometric contraction. The stronger this isometric contraction, the greater the tension that can be developed which can then converted into an explosive concentric contraction when you execute the final movement." Dr Michael Yessis, article below.

3) Concentric Contraction: This is the muscle shortening phase, pushing or pulling the weigh up.

Eccentric and Isometric Training

Eccentric Training and Isometric Training are misunderstood, neglected and misused.

The only Eccentric and Isometric Training the majority of individual obtain is in the complete movement. Very few individual ever focus on each individual component.

Dr Michael Yessis' Summary
Do You Need Isometrics? - Dr. Yessis SportLab

"For the fastest and most effective increases in strength you need all three types of muscular contraction regimes. The concentric regime remains as the major muscle contraction and should be used approximately 75% of the time. Eccentrics should be done for approximately 15% of the time and isometrics, 10%.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Last edited:
Altitude drops allow you to progress to heights that surpass what you can achieve concentrically. Since people are stronger eccentrically than concentrically, just jumping limits you to a concentrically achieved height, so the eccentric force of your landing is limited by what you can generate concentrically. Whereas altitude drops allow you to progress beyond that; you can fall from a height above which you can actively jump to. Even if you load a jump from ground level, the height of your jump and therefore the landing force will be limited by your concentric ability under that load. Part of the idea is that you have to generate/absorb so much force so quickly that your nervous system will organize maximally, without compensations. Obviously it's important to have some training capacity prior to progressing to this. Also part of Schroeder's system are things like long duration isometric holds, most notoriously his lunge version; supported low squat jumps; ankle jumps; russian lunge jumps; etc. It's not a bad idea to make sure your connective tissue is prepared before dropping from high heights.

Impressive Post

Great response.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Concentric Only Training enables you to recovery faster.

I like to add what could be classified as "easy strength ballistic concentric" movements to my recovery days. Box jumps, sled pulls, MB throws. Usually preceded by a 20-30 minute session of mobility, easy calisthenics, biking, sled pulls, etc...low intensity, aerobic heart rate type stuff. Then 2-3 sets of 2-3 reps of something explosive and concentric. Right when I feel like I'm ready to go, I pull the plug. Really seems to make me feel better the next day. Without just a touch of that sort of thing, I feel quite sluggish after a down day.

An example:
Multidirection sled pulls. Grab the sled out in the backyard. Forward, backward, lateral, cross over. A few sets of each for 20 yards or so, with just enough weight to make me focus on posture and to get my heart up to MAF type levels. Multidirectional rucking, if you will. At the end of 20-30 minutes, I'll do 2-3 sets of 2-3 sled face pulls, like the video you posted above. A little bit of fun in the sun, and the next day I feel sharp and ready to go.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom