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Old Forum Do martial artist need heavy barbell work?

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lokate

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I have asked a semilar question before. The reaction was: stick to PM of ETK and thats it.

But everywere you read on Internet they say that martial artist have to be strong, powefull, explosive etc. Off course I knwo this is true and I know a lott have to do with sharpening your skills. But I cant imagine what the PM will do to get you stronger. To me it seems more cardivascualir then building some strenght. And I aleady train that with punching and kicking the bag, sparring etc.

But then again, I dont know for sure if martial artist have to go for heavy bench press, squat and deadlift.

I like bodyweights much, things like you can see on www.bar-barians.com but these guys train a lott, sometimes more then 2 hours a day, and I dont think thats good for martial artist.

Off course I have kettlebells but you cant make them heavyer, if its get easy you just have to do more reps or buy another kettlebell, and I dont know if thats the way you get stronger.

So I dont know the best way to get stronger for martial artist withouot taking to much time away to train martial arts to. I try to train martial arts 2-3 times a week, run/sprint 2 times a week so I dont have hours left to spent. Have to say that I am a little bit older (53) but I have practiced all kinds off martial artist since the age off 15, so I think I am in a good shape. But still, when I started there was nothing you can find about supplementary training in the 70-ties, so I just did the normal push-ups, pull-ups, sit-ups etc. But now you can read about hundreds of routines almost everyday and I dont know whats the best way is to keep it simple but effective.

So if anybody have some guidelins it would be great. I train at home so I have a bench, barbell, dumbells and I can do pull-ups and dips, off course I have 2 kettlebells (20 and 24 kilo) and a sandbag of 40 and 60 kilo and off course a heavy bag to kick and punch.
 
wim,  Both Easy Strength and Intervention by Dan John, are great for a minimalist strength plan.  I'm 47 and do martial arts also, so I follow the ideas in these books.  Since the beginning of this year, I've been slowly but steadily getting stronger on easy strength.

Al
 
Hey Allen, thanks for reaction. Dont you do any kettlebell stuff then?

Thats my main problem, in my mind I have to do it all, training with barbell, kettlebell, sandbags bodyweight etc. Off course I cant do that all but thats my biggest problem, I like to work with kettlebells, sandbags etc but I dont have time to do that and off course its not necacsaray (soory for my bad Englisch, I am from Holland)

 
 
1. Read Easy Strength and Intervention.

2. Really, the 2 books above will answer all your questions. If you want something more specific than that, than asking questions about "martial arts" is meaningless without specifying the art in question.  The needs of a sambo player are different then someone who does savate; an aikidoka has different issues than a muay thai fighter. Competing or not is also very relevant, and if so, where and when. If not, see number 1 again.

3. Read Easy Strength and Intervention. Take notes.

4. Do you need to do any strength training for martial arts? No, you can be very successfull without it. Is it possible for strength training to be detrimental? Absolutely, although not the old mythology of "it will make you slow, inflexible, "muscle bound" etc; that's hogwash.  The biggest issue that can come up is simply the time it takes away, and the recovery.  This is why you should refer back to points 1 and 3. Can strength training be tremendously beneficial if done intelligently and correctly? Absolutely, both for making you better, and for preventing injury (for some martial arts/combat sports, this is equally if not more important).

5. Read Intervention. Answer the 10 questions, thoughtfully and honestly. Accept deep in your bones that you are in quadrant 3. Now reread Easy Strength and apply the lessons. Or, just alternate between Pttp and PM for a year, and train your martial art.
 
One more point, since the edit function doesn't seem to be working. Getting stronger is a good thing, for pretty much everyone. It's about principles, not methods. That can be barbell, bodyweight, or kettle bell, or some combination thereof.  All should be explored if possible, not necessarily at the same time.

If you can only do one of the three, that's fine, just pick it, learn it well, and stick with it for a while before you do something else. Just like martial arts: "should I do judo, boxing, wrestling, muay thai, or bjj?" well, any of them are fine. "how about I do each one day a week, while training to run a marathon". No, how about you decide what's important to you, pick one thing, get good at it, than add something else.

I prefer barbells or kettlebells for a lot of martial artists over bodyweight as the primary tool, but the tool really matters much much less than the proper application of principles.
 
Hi Wim, your main problem is you wanna do everything at once and you are thinking too much.

You wrote: "I can't imagine that PM will get me stronger". Imagination is beatiful thing, and i can imagine that guy who is doing 5min get ups with 40kg bell is strong.

Easy Strength, Intervention, Naked Warrior and Power to the people have got everything you need, and answer for every your question. Just read it, and reread it many times. I always back to this books, because with practice appears a new questions, i am catching a new details, new tips, new perspective.

 
 
Okay, thanks guys, really have some things to think about. And yes, I assume that if you calen & press 32 kilo for a few reps you are strong.

Indeed its not possible to train everything. So I will take it slow and I will read Easy strength.

Thanks again
 
Honestly... yes.  IMHO too much is put on 'conditioning'. I am with others Do Easy strength by Pavel and Dan John as a martial artist. They have many refrences to the best trainers in the MMA and other martial arts trainers on how they strength train.

To be good at something, you must do that something and its the priority, NOT the weight room. As a Martial artist I know many who did very, very little weight training and did outstanding. Weight training should assist your martial arts training, but doing martial arts training should be the main thing you do.
 
Yes, you are right. I think I will stick to kettlebells and bodyweight. I dont have the time to work up to a 100 kilo bench press or something like that, and I think its neccsary to.

Kettlebells geve me always a good workout in combination with some pull-ups and dips
 
Wilm,

 

I struggle with some of the same questions.  Just take your time, follow the instructions and pay attention to your body.  I was all keen for progressing with the ROP+pulls but had to back off into the PM again as I found that the ligaments in my elbows were suffering from too much strain from punching, pushups, receiving joint locks etc on top of lots of pressing and pullups.  Yes, I would like to progress through the ROP up to the basic standard of 1/2 bw/usss but I'm not going to forget that I got into strength training to support my future career (medic) and improve my martial arts.  Something had to go and it wasn't the martial arts.  I'll still get there, but just at a pace that works for what I want out of my training.  In any case I find the more I do swings, the more everything else seems easier so maybe after a few more months of just swings and TGUs my elbows will laugh at the strain they were struggling under.
 
Hello Charles, I know the problem. ometimes I am so busy to surch for the ultiamte workout that I am just busy trayiing all the workouts out, forgetting that I train for martial arts.

I just want to keep the supplementary things simple like I always did. I was/am a good martial artist. I dont have to be superstrong. Martial arts is most and above a spirutal thing, I mean, you can be a 7th degree black beld in different martial arts but if you dont have a fighters mentality (or killer instict) you wont get any far. People think you can fight but realy fighting is different.

So as I said, I feel that kettlebells are good for my body, heavy weights not. So I will stick to kettlebells and keep it simple. AS long as I progress with reps or weight I got stronger but not off the cost off my martial arts training.
 
@wim lokate

" But I cant imagine what the PM will do to get you stronger.  "

 

Then you have not done it with with a challenging enough weight. My roundhouse was killing guys when I started using the 32kg on the PM.

The PM is a very very good healthy and strong program. The KB Swing alone could prepare any martial artist. Power and strength.

 

 
 
Wim,

Just for perspective I train Traditional Chinese Martial arts (Bagua is my main focus), some Sanda and body conditioning work (elbows, fingers, shins).  I am in a training academy at the moment so it is 3.5-4hrs a day, 5 days a week.   Qigong / meditation 7x a week.

Me and a kung fu brother stripped a strength routine down to weighted pull ups and handstand pushups.  We do it twice a week to keep things simple.  6 ladders with a maximum of 3 rungs.   We don't do any leg work as the stance work is demanding enough.

It's working very nicely.  Getting stronger and it is doing nothing but benefit the martial art.

Simple is best. Be consistent.

Richard
 
Richard, if you don't mind my asking, where do you train? There's very few places in the US with that kind of intense schedule for Chinese martial arts; I'm glad to see it. The only one's I know of are Yang Jwingming's program and Wah Lum.
 
@Jason I don't mind at all.  I train at Wudang Pai Berlin (Germany). This is the main training academy outside of Wudang China.   There is the option of being resident but I live out.  Training is separated into early morning qigong, morning training for the intensive students, evening classes for intensive students and regular students, midnight training / meditation etc.  I live out and have a full time job but engineered my life so that I can train the morning sessions before work.  I squeeze some conditioning into the evenings at home as well.  My best, Richard
 
Geez guys, you are giving him the wrong answer. The right answer is always: It depends,

 
 
Follow ETK and some joint mobility/stretching. Cut the press volume in half. You will not be disappointed. KB's  re fighters best friend for too many reasons for me to list.
 
In my Chinese martial arts/MMA school, beginners work on basic bodyweight skills based on Naked Warrior/SFB curriculum + wrestler bridges.

Most of my students work continue to kettlebell TGUs, swings and pullups, my fighters/advanced students  do barbell Deadlifts, Zerchers, Floor Presses, Full Contact Twists (+ Pullups), Easy Strength type of "Work-In" for cca. 3 months, then they switch to kettlebell exercises again for cca. 3 months.

Tools might be different, the recipe is always the same - low reps, moderate to heavy weights, never to failure, plenty of rest. They have lots of conditioning punching the bag, focus mitts, sets, drills and rolling and sparring; those who need it follow the running program for fighters from Easy Strength.

Interesting to note, the stronger the student gets, the better he gets at everything, and i mean everything - better movement, better technique, more powerful strike, faster kick, biger tank, more confidence.  Discovering Chief's work was the best thing that happened to my martial arts progresss, period.

ETK, PTTP, NW, Hardstyle Abs, Easy Strength - read those books, and again and again.

Attend StrongFirst courses/certs, you will get the answers there - i certainly did.  It is not coincidence that many of the SF Team Leaders/Seniors/Masters are high level martial artists -  Peter Lakatos, Tommy Blom, Mark Cheng, Jon Engum, Tamer... Many many others.

PM

 
 
Thanks!. I know now that kettlebelland bodyweight would be a good combination (I mean pull-ups etc.) Maybay put in some heavy deadlift now and then. But if I start to incoperate floor presses, zecher squats etc. I think the workout will be to long, I mean to much exercises etc. Thanks for the info
 
I have followed your guys advice to read Easy strength but the only routine I can find is the 40 day routine wereby you do 5 exercises everyday.

Although it seems a great programm to build serios strength I dont think its good to combine with martial arts training, assuming that you train martial arts 3 times a week, run 2 times a week and then you have to follow the 40 day routine will be way to much I think.

Or do I miss something (or even workouts that are suitabel for martial arts)

And if you follow such a workout when do you train with kettlebells or does it mean to train without them?
 
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