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Other/Mixed Do we need to train speed or power?

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Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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I wonder where the PL group would compare to the OL group in regards to stamina and endurance. Could the PL group perhaps do heavier longer yoke carries? Maybe there is a benefit beyond 1RM type of movements.

As a weightlifter, my high bar/front squat numbers are pretty good for a guy my age / size.

When I started training loaded carries, my performance was mediocre. About average for an active guy my size.

So IMHO...both PL and WL would suck compared to those who train for it, like Strongmen.

"Barbell strength" is not as multi-purpose or multi-positional as some people like to think it is.

If you want to get strength endurance, train for it.

Neither PL or WL have a reason to get good at it.
 
That's exactly the point I'm considering. Is a PL or OL going to wrestle better, push a broke down car better, carry 6x6s for a deck better, climb a rock face better, or fireman carry a hurt teammate better?

????

Wresting has a huge skill component.

Rock climbing, in addition to skill, is a completely different kind of strength than either WL or PL. And it's proportional strength, not absolute.

I was carrying / dragging 6x6's when I was a teen...before I ever touched a barbell.

Fireman carry doesn't require barbell skills, and plenty of people who are good at it don't do much with barbells.

Life isn't a video or roleplaying game where you have a "strength" stat that lets you do well at all things related to strength.
 
Thinking about my needs a little, almost everything I need to accomplish is more about absolute and relative strength combined with stamina and work capacity. I feel like I would be better served by heavy deadlifts than by swings or snatches. Are any of the strong endurance protocols with heavy barbells? Where would I be if I put a heavy barbell at the track and did a heavy single every lap as I walked laps for an hour?
Look up Bryce Lane’s 50/20.

Aside from specific athletic pursuits in sports, I have a hard time thinking of scenarios or needs that being stronger wouldn't solve the problem as well or better than being fast or more powerful.
+1. That’s why we say you can be anything you want but you must be strong first.

-S-
 
That's exactly the point I'm considering. Is a PL or OL going to wrestle better, push a broke down car better, carry 6x6s for a deck better, climb a rock face better, or fireman carry a hurt teammate better?

Jack of All Trade

Do you want to be a Jack of All Trades?

Wrestling

Does Maximum Strength and Power really matter in Wrestling?

Pushing A Broke Down Car

1) Does Maximum Strength matter in pushing a heavy car?

2) Is Power needed in pushing a car?

Rock Climbing and A Fireman's Carry

Does Maximum Strength and/or Power matter for doing either of these?

For those that speed and power are not the specific sport, does the time and effort training speed and power transfer to those activities better or worse than the same time and effort training maximum strength or possibly even something else?

Practical Experience

1 ) Don't do them and see how that works.

2) Then do them and find see if you notice any difference.

Knowledge

There is plenty of training information online that will provide you with answers to you question on this.

Some of the answers just require some common sense.

Occam's Razor

The simplest answer is usually the right one. Don't overthink it.
 
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Thinking about my needs a little, almost everything I need to accomplish is more about absolute and relative strength combined with stamina and work capacity. ...

Aside from specific athletic pursuits in sports, I have a hard time thinking of scenarios or needs that being stronger wouldn't solve the problem as well or better than being fast or more powerful.
Honestly that sounds like most people. They need to get stronger and have more work capacity. (Most likely need more aerobic training too.) If you want to get stronger with a barbell, fantastic. Following a strength training session with kettlebells is highly effective for what you just described - for instance, ending your strength training sessions with kettlebell ballistics OTM for 10-20 min.

However, I have to disagree with your last statement. Being strong enough is vitally important, but being stronger than that often has an inhibitory effect on other qualities, especially if that strength is developed without also developing other qualities - particularly aerobic qualities. Most non-athletic pursuits are more about endurance than they are strength, speed, or power.
 
@Bro Mo ....you want performance gains and you mention track in some other threads.

Can you pin it down?

Much like @kennycro@@aol.com says above: do you want performance gains for a heptathlete, or a sprinter, or mid distance runner, or shot putter?

As a good level heptathlete, you won't have the top speed or a 100m sprinter, nor the throwing prowess or upper body strength of a shot putter but you can be good at them both and be a good high jumper, if you can work on your height, even better! So a heptathlete has a massive GPP and developed skills in a variety of pursuits.

And all of that is relative of course, good for you and your goals but maybe not good enough to compete and perform at a national level.

I see myself as a generalist most of the time and I dip my toes into sprint specialism. With a broad base of generalism, it allows you to, doesn't it?
But, but, but...that's not the same as sprinting and doing a marathon, or sprinting and doing a 10 k even. Of course, you can, there is no crime here, just you won't be very good at both, compared to the competition, which again is relative. You can do a marathon reasonably well and compete in the Dad's sports day, sure or be a top level sprinter and do a marathon in 6 hours.
So performance gains for what?

Speed strength is specific to the task. Even within sprints, there are differences, strengths and weaknesses. And I can imagine within lifting to, the speed required for some lifts will be specific to them, no? Of course, there is some crossover. And so to the heptathlete thing - will you be the best at all disciplines compared to the competition? Probably not. If you excel in most and just be ok in a couple, that maybe enough for a high points score. You maybe excel in all running events and absolutely suck at everything else, so you fail to qualify. So next time put some work into the javelin and high jump OR ditch everything and pick your best running distance - where are you relative to specialist sprinters or mid distance runners or distance runners??

So reckon you need to pin it down and laser in. Performance gains generally, including speed and power v specific speed and power gains.

So do you compete to your strengths or work on your weaknesses?

If your endurance is crap on a 10k but you can run a 55 sec 400, which one do you prefer? Forego some speed in favour of better endurance?
Quick in a 60, quick-ish in a 200?

That's my dilemma. Improving my 200 times will not harm my 60 too much. Improving my 60 will improve my 200 and 100.

I need to be faster. More speed.

If I wanted a good 400, then more nasty speed endurance is required. But I don't need or want any - even though at my age I do a sub minute 400, to do a fast 400 requires exponential levels of grief and vomit that I'm not committed to!!

And that's the issue - how bad do you want performance? What can you commit to?

I like and enjoy running fast and enjoy the training process with that aim. But I'm not going to kill myself nor wreck everything in my life to gain an extra 0.1. At the same time if my times were ball park final potential in the world champs I might dig in, if a fancy a pop at it.

So, this is my take: broad base GPP, stick with that.

For running speed and power - what distance?

And if you want speed - ditch 400 repeat vomit sessions (unless 400 is a specialty) - and focus on running fast. Strength - strong enough is relative. Speed too - fast enough is relative.
 
That's exactly the point I'm considering. Is a PL or OL going to wrestle better, push a broke down car better, carry 6x6s for a deck better, climb a rock face better, or fireman carry a hurt teammate better?

For those that speed and power are not the specific sport, does the time and effort training speed and power transfer to those activities better or worse than the same time and effort training maximum strength or possibly even something else?



In my opinion the answer is no. Almost all of the power output training is specific to lifting sports and athletics. Strength is distressingly tied to the manner and movement under which it was trained. You see it often in studies where an untrained activity is tested before and after and the % improvement has almost no relation to the % improvements in the exercises used. This is why I always emphasize grind strength and local endurance first. With those at a acceptable-to-the-individual level you can work any other attribute with relative ease.

There is the point that has come up repeatedly in this thread though, that moderate load power training seems to have a restorative effect for the build up of fatigue and stress associated with a lot of high tension work. IDK at what point there are diminishing returns on this, but I'd say there is a minimum dose that should be part of any ambitious fitness plan.
 
@ali
For the most part, all the track content is related to my kids that run track. I dabble in it mostly to keep them motivated. I do have a running test for work but other than that, running is social exercise.

I don't really know any track athletes that strength train; all they do is run. However, I've heard/read that strength training has been becoming much more common place and different approaches have been taken. Some say quick lifts like cleans make faster sprinters, other say squats make faster sprinters. I don't know what coaches like Alberto Salazar prefer for distance runners, just that he is an advocate of strength training.

Is there a cost/benefit for squats or deadlifts to improve your times over something like cleans or simply more sprints?
//
As far as the jack of all trades, aren't we all? However, we only have so much time to train and recovery available. I don't have a hidden agenda for the thread, I just got to thinking about all the tasks I have in front of me and considered what tasks would become easier with a focus on maximum/relative strength as opposed to speed/power. I like kettelbell ballistics just fine but also feel that time and recovery might possibly be better spent on more deadlifts.

I like to see @Harald Motz doing Q&D with deadlifts and hope he chimes in with his experiences with it.

I think periodization models of hypertrophy (make new muscle), strength (make that new muscle stronger), speed/power (make that new strong muscle faster), rinse and repeat, is pretty common for athletics. However, I was curious where two athletes might be if one rotated through all three for a year compared to an athlete that only rotated through the first two for that same year. Maybe there is no significant difference. Maybe there is. With studies like Jonathon Oliver's, seems the latter might be better off using clusters during hypertrophy, foregoing a speed/power block and get 50% more time focusing on strength.
 
@Bro Mo.....fair enough.

I've noticed this when I only train speed....I move better.

That's caveated by, when I do speed work, I spend a lot (more) time on mobility and easy recovery.

Fast & loose, as they say.

I don't think that, inferring only, to be any different than a focused strength block with recovery - where, generally, anecdotally, 'feeling good' is a thing: well-being.

As a fitness modality, speed has its plus points - neural muscular timing, staying sharp, snappy and reactive - that are harder to come by doing strength or even power training but that may all be individually biased towards where perhaps genetics influences the activity too. It's so hard to differentiate the variables.
 
Does working at high intensities force a high rate of force development just the same in order to complete the rep?

I have read somewhere that intent to move the bar fast is the same as actually moving the bar fast. However, to get good at a specific end of the strength velocity curve you do have to train there. As Kenny said, strenght increases power at first, but once strong enough you need specific time at the right spot of the curve to get a positive adaptation.

MED?

Since I don't know what that acronym is, I can't reply.

Minimum Effective Dose
 
I don't really know any track athletes that strength train; all they do is run.

Decades of Strength Trained Sprinters

Sprinters have employed Strength Training as a means of decreasing their Sprint Times for decades.

Here is...

Ben Johnson's Weight Training Program by Coach Charlie Francis

Charlie Francis was one of the best Sprint Coaches of that era.

"By 1985 Johnson had worked up to a 350-pound bench press and could do bench squats (bench set below parallel) of 2 x 6 x 500 pounds."

I've heard/read that strength training has been becoming much more common place and different approaches have been taken.

It IS Common Place

There is plenty of research data since 1985 (35 years) that demonstrates that Strength Training is a vital component of a Sprinter program.

So, it not new. It is just new to you.

Is there a cost/benefit for squats or deadlifts to improve your times over something like cleans or simply more sprints?

Previous Posted Information

This question was answered in some previous post.

The short answer is for optimal development, both Maximum Strength and Power need to be trained.

I think periodization models of hypertrophy (make new muscle), strength (make that new muscle stronger), speed/power (make that new strong muscle faster), rinse and repeat, is pretty common for athletics.

Linear Periodization Training

This method performs training blocks: General Physical Preparedness, Hypertrophy, Strength, Power and Speed. The pecking order is dependent the demand of each sport.

I wouldn't say this method is the most common.

The new kid of the block, that I am an advocate and use is...

Non-Linear Periodization

Dr Michael Zourdos and the Westside Poswerlifting Protocol us this method.

Charles Poliquin/Canadian Strength Coach wrote research on this method around 1988.

Knowledge

It is great the you read Oliver's research on Cluster Set Training as a means of increasing muscle mass without decreasing Maximum Strength, Power and Speed.

While I believe in keeping things simple, you are wanting a simple "Yes" or "No" answer to complex question.

To complete understand this means you need to gain more knowledge. There is plenty of great online information on this that can help you.
 
Is there a cost/benefit for squats or deadlifts to improve your times over something like cleans or simply more sprints?
Ryan Flaherty of Nike performance center says that a 3.2x bw hex bar deadlift is optimal for speed development. Strength-to-weight development seems to be crucial,
even for longer distances.

Once per week, 3-5x5 IIRC, demphasizing negatives (even dropping the weight).


What I spent the next five years doing was spending time in the weight room correlating the data between every exercise – so, I tested the same athletes in the weight room with squat, power clean, hand clean, front squat, leg press, leg extension, cardio – everything you can think of under the sun – and measured their one-rep match in those exercises and their body mass and compared that to the force plate treadmill study, and it didn’t correlate until I actually got to the hex bar deadlift.
Tim Ferriss: What would that first hypertrophy phase look like?

Ryan Flaherty: I would do three to four sets of 65 percent of your max for one to two weeks, and then I would shift up 5 percent every week leading up to about 85 to 90 percent, where I would go for reps of five or three. So, based on the percentage that you’re lifting – let’s say it’s 65 percent – you’re going to be between six- to eight-rep range there. When you start to get to 75 or 80 percent, you want to be between the five- to eight-rep range, and then, when you get above 85 percent and 90 percent, you want to be between two reps and five reps.

So, more than anything, what you’re ultimately trying to do is with the amount of cross-section muscle fiber that your body currently has, you’re trying to stress your nervous system to recruit the largest motor units possible. To do that, you have to lift heavy

Ryan Flaherty: For the elite-level athletes, generally, I’ll have them do it anywhere between one to two times a week. It just depends on the amount of time I have with them. For certain athletes – I work with Serena Williams in the off-season, so I generally have her in November or December. I only have two months with her, so I’ll ease her into it and build up to two times a week towards the end. But, if you have a long period of time, I would go one day a week and alternate with another complex exercise on the second lower-body day you do that week.

But, I think two times a week – if you’re starting the hypertrophy phase, I would say 4×8 at 65 percent – I like to pair it with some sort of plyometric to continue to recruit those fast-twitch larger motor units, and from there, I go into all auxiliary single unilateral exercises to help fix imbalances, or train the body in a way that we’re not working bilaterally besides that one hex bar deadlift. So, I would do a hex bar deadlift with the plyo, and then a couple single-leg exercises

So basically neurological max strength training + power training + high rep stabilizer training (unilateral).
 
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SRA?

I am unfamiliar with that acronym. So, I can't reply to that question
Stimulus Recovery Adaptation (SRA)
Decades of Strength Trained Sprinters

Sprinters have employed Strength Training as a means of decreasing their Sprint Times for decades.
I don't know Ben Johnson or Charlie Francis, who are they? ?

Kidding aside, I literally meant I didn't personally know anyone and that it is in fact new to me. My experience with track athletes and coaches is limited to the high school I went to and the schools and clubs my kids have been involved in, none of whom include strength training in their programs. I'm not sure if it's because strength isn't as valuable at that level of athletic development or something else though like logistics.

Regardless, a sprinters sport is speed and power and it would make sense for them to specifically train it.

It's the non-speed/power athletes I'm contemplating and whether those pursuits benefit from it. Does a marathon runner benefit more from including swings and high-pulls or from something else? Does a strongman benefit more from including swings and high-pulls or from something else. Does that synergistic effect of speed and power training apply across the board? Right now, based on the conversation so far, I'm thinking, yes.
 
Hello,

Beyond the pure athletic performance, assuming we properly perform the moves, strength training is proven to reduce the risk of injury. For most of us humans, this only reason is worthy.

"When you are 20, train like you are 40, so when you are 40, you can perform like you are 20".

This is why I like D. John's view on Easy Strength or Even Easier Strength.

Here is an interesting D. John's article on ladders in function of the goal

So as far as a programming and "well rounded" training training are concerned, maybe something like:
- D. John's Ladder or ES or EES
- 3x sessions of sprinting a week (or Q&D)
- Aerobic base on the top of the above (plenty of daily walking or easy jog)

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
My experience with track athletes and coaches is limited to the high school I went to and the schools and clubs my kids have been involved in, none of whom include strength training in their programs. I'm not sure if it's because strength isn't as valuable at that level of athletic development or something else though like logistics.

High School Coaches

Part of my job revolves around working with High School Coaches in various sports, as well as dealing with Athletic Directors.

While these coaches know their sport, their knowledge and practical experience is limited when it come to Strength Training.

Due to their long hours of teaching combined with coaching, they don't have much time to invest in gaining more knowledge in the application of Strength Training for their particular sport or sports; nor are they interested.

One Football Coach/Athletic Directors at a small school told me his Strength Training Method for his HIgh School Athletes was to push them til they came close to puking.

Strength Coaches

What High Schools need is a Strength Coach; someone who is specifically dedicated to training High School athletes for their individual sport.

However, the majority of High School budgets for sport are limited. They cannot afford to have a Strength Coach, as Universities and Professional Sports do.

HIgh School Football Coaches are also the Strength Coach; it is more of an after thought, a job they are relegated to.

A High School Coach at a small school coached many sports, as well as being the Strength Training Coach, copied a generic Strength Trining Program from an article.

His Strength Training Program for each sport was titled at the top of program that he passed around. The Strength Training was the same for every sport with sets, repetition, etc.

The ONLY thing that changed was the title at the top of the Strength Training Program page that he passed out. It went from being "The Football Strength Training Program to "The Basketball Strength Training Program" to Baseball, Track, Volleyball, etc.

Regardless, a sprinters sport is speed and power and it would make sense for them to specifically train it.

Speed and Power Training For Sprinters

Yes, the focus for Sprinter needs to be on increasing Speed and Power. However...

Strength IS The Foundation

To reiterate, research and anecdotal data have demonstrated that an initial increase in Maximum Strength produces an increase in Speed and Power.

That means if you want to be fast or powerful, you first need to get stronger and keep getting stronger.

Thus, a well written and executed Strength Training Program for Sprinters is built on Maximum Strength Training.

Maximum Strength needs to be not only maintained but increased for Speed/Power Athletes.

As Maximum Strength increases Power and Speed Movement then need to be incorporated.

It's the non-speed/power athletes I'm contemplating and whether those pursuits benefit from it. Does a marathon runner benefit more from including swings and high-pulls or from something else?

Strength Training for Endurance Athletes

Research has demonstrated that Endurance Athletes benefit from Strength Training.
 
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Life isn't a video or roleplaying game where you have a "strength" stat that lets you do well at all things related to strength.


This statement really sums up the topic in my opinion, and a great many other strength related discussions. Carryover is a fickle thing.

I can say this, every time I try out some novel form of loading I ALWAYS feel it later. Doesn't matter if its rapid isometric pulses, longer isometric grinds, explosive lifts with a sandbag, offset weighted pole, whatever, it always takes a few sessions to dial in the neuro and physical responses needed to do well. That said, I always expect to come around fairly rapidly, and so far I always have. And it is ALWAYS easier to hold onto an attribute than to to gain it the first time or regain it after a long absence.

I think it makes sense to say you could identify a number of generic resistance loading methods and assign a % value from 0-100 to your training time based on expected/desired outcome:
- Isometric
- grind
- explosive
Really, some amount greater than zero of all three should be part of the mix.

Whatever you train it can be made to help with deficiencies in other areas as long as you're sufficiently advanced. From one of the MTI "deep dives" re rucking factors:

Another interesting finding was that high performing athletes and/or those who excelled in at least one physical area (endurance, strength, etc.) produced “noisy” results. When looking at data from these athletes it was difficult to identify specific individual training factors because their superior abilities in one or more areas allows them to compensate for deficiencies on other areas – i.e. masking individual training effects.
 
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