Kettlebell Does anyone else think the "big jumps" of kettlebells is a little fishy?

[John Bye]

I see the big jumps thing as a constraint, one which is now optional. Constraints are normally seen as a negative but they can be very useful in enhancing creativity and focus and I think that’s true for kettlebell training and programming. For me, Pavel emphasises constraints in much of his work (the constraints of time, a job to be done, readiness, a ballistic and a grind, etc), whether these constraints are real or artificial (i.e. self-imposed). I for one find that appealing, just as I do minimalism.

 

[Eric Wilson]

@Eric Wilson,

I'm not sure quite what voicing your disapproval of Pavel's style here accomplishes for you or for anyone. There are plenty of other sources of strength and conditioning advice and programming out there.

-S-

I understand your point. I wanted to know if anyone hear felt the same way on this point. And it's encouraging that there are many that are fairly accomplished in strength that agree with me here. Maybe I also wanted to give the feedback, so that other SF instructors can recognize aspects of the SF culture that are not beneficial.

As far as posting a video -- I can see that happening. I'm making progress, I'm putting in work consistently, and trying to make sure to improve my technique. Haven't tested myself on the 16kg for a month or so, hoping that my plans for the next two months (which involve much from suggestion from a previous thread) will get me ready to attempt ROP at 16kg.

 

[offwidth]

Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own.
- Bruce Lee

 

[watchnerd]

I think the old time big jumps between kettlebell sizes are a negative aspect, and nothing but such.

I see the big jumps thing as a constraint, one which is now optional.

From a marketing POV, I understand the value of the minimalist message -- get people off their butts started with even 1 kettlebell.

However, since Schoenfeld's groundbreaking 2010 study on the causes of hypertrophy, as well well as the less-known 2009 and 2010 meta-analysesby Krieger on effective set / rep ranges....

Single versus multiple sets of resistance exercise: a meta-regression - PubMed

There has been considerable debate over the optimal number of sets per exercise to improve musculoskeletal strength during a resistance exercise program. The purpose of this study was to use hierarchical, random-effects meta-regression to compare the effects of single and multiple sets per...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

...I think there is now plenty of evidence for another, less minimalist path that may require more outlay in terms of $$$ kettlebell capital and space, but may provide a smoother subjective glide path for the athlete.

This could be implemented either through smaller step-loading (which the current S&S already alludes to), or minimalist DUP.

If I were Pavel's editor, I would encourage such expansion content for S&S 3.0.

 

[watchnerd]

And it's encouraging that there are many that are fairly accomplished in strength that agree with me here.

The research is pretty compelling that cranking the tension knob directly isn't the only way to go about inducing hypertrophy and strength.

You may find this overview useful as a foundation for re-framing the problem in a more sophisticated way than the "big jumps" approach:

 

[psmith]

tl;dr yeah it's dumb

actual competitive kettlebell sport guys routinely use 2kg increments (Denis Vasilev talks about this all the time)

 

[coachnathanwhite]

Maybe I also wanted to give the feedback, so that other SF instructors can recognize aspects of the SF culture that are not beneficial.

Thank you for your feedback. I would ask that you reserve your final judgement on the culture at StrongFirst for after you attend a course, 3 day certification, or work one on one with an instructor. I am confident your experience will be nothing short of first class.

Regarding Pavel, IMO his communication style and unapologetic bluntness is a direct result of where he is from. There was no questioning the rules or raising your hand to offer feedback to superiors. Also, in a blue collar setting, like a freezing kettlebell dungeon in the mountains, guys bust chops. That's just how it is. It is how you test the man next to you to see if he is worthy, can he pull his weight when it hits the fan.

That style of communicating isn't offensive in that setting, it's encouraged to break up the monotony and maybe have a laugh because you are literally busting your AS* every single day.

Pavel has brought that style to all of his work because guess what, kettlebell training is hard work! He didn't even want to bring kettlebells back into mainstream fitness because in his words - "The training is just too hard." It also adds humor to his writing and gives him a marketing edge in the industry where people generally take themselves a bit too seriously.

 

[Wes P]

I suppose it depends on the person like most anything else.

I found I could TGU the 48kg without ever going heavier than the 32kg for 5 reps a side EMOM. So clearly for that it wasn't necessary. Same thing with pressing, I could press the 40kg for reps while occasionally using a 32 and mostly using a 24.

It's going to vary a lot between people and exercises. There's no shame in using "tween" bells if you want to.

 

[Alexander Halford]

We’re all gonna have different needs.

That.
We're all too much driven by numbers.
8kg jump obviously can't be the same effort for different people. Don't be affected by numbers, let it serve you.

 

[Don Fairbanks]

Thank you for your feedback. I would ask that you reserve your final judgement on the culture at StrongFirst for after you attend a course, 3 day certification, or work one on one with an instructor. I am confident your experience will be nothing short of first class.

Regarding Pavel, IMO his communication style and unapologetic bluntness is a direct result of where he is from. There was no questioning the rules or raising your hand to offer feedback to superiors. Also, in a blue collar setting, like a freezing kettlebell dungeon in the mountains, guys bust chops. That's just how it is. It is how you test the man next to you to see if he is worthy, can he pull his weight when it hits the fan.

That style of communicating isn't offensive in that setting, it's encouraged to break up the monotony and maybe have a laugh because you are literally busting your AS* every single day.

Pavel has brought that style to all of his work because guess what, kettlebell training is hard work! He didn't even want to bring kettlebells back into mainstream fitness because in his words - "The training is just too hard." It also adds humor to his writing and gives him a marketing edge in the industry where people generally take themselves a bit too seriously.

@natewhite39 , Yep, they'd probably be training in the snow, wearing shorts, and there would be plenty of " Are those your legs or did you ride in on a chicken?" And much more. Would be hilarious .

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Thank you for your feedback. I would ask that you reserve your final judgement on the culture at StrongFirst for after you attend a course, 3 day certification, or work one on one with an instructor. I am confident your experience will be nothing short of first class.

Regarding Pavel, IMO his communication style and unapologetic bluntness is a direct result of where he is from. There was no questioning the rules or raising your hand to offer feedback to superiors. Also, in a blue collar setting, like a freezing kettlebell dungeon in the mountains, guys bust chops. That's just how it is. It is how you test the man next to you to see if he is worthy, can he pull his weight when it hits the fan.

That style of communicating isn't offensive in that setting, it's encouraged to break up the monotony and maybe have a laugh because you are literally busting your AS* every single day.

Pavel has brought that style to all of his work because guess what, kettlebell training is hard work! He didn't even want to bring kettlebells back into mainstream fitness because in his words - "The training is just too hard." It also adds humor to his writing and gives him a marketing edge in the industry where people generally take themselves a bit too seriously.

Agree with this..

Each SF instructor eventually blends in his/he rown unique style into the material taught.

Eric, I can tell you this much. Give working with an SFG a chance.. My experience in which how certain situations discussed here are tackled differently by various instructors while still staying with the principles.

And in terms of humor etc, it also varies.

If there are any questions/concerns please do reach out since you are also helping us become better that way

 

[watchnerd]

tl;dr yeah it's dumb

I certainly eye-rolled the first time I heard it / read it.

For those who are not new to strength and conditioning, I suspect it gets ignored if it doesn't fit. I certainly did.

The problems arise, like many things in S&C, when novices are unclear on what is "a method" vs "a good method for me".

 

[james_1127]

Which program has the LCCJ in it?

Thanks for the responses.

I'll clarify my meaning.

I'm trying to get my press to where I can use 16kg regularly. Currently it's my 2rm.

I weigh 130, 47yo, in first year of training. Going from 16kg to 24kg for swings was ok-ish. For TGU it was dangerous (for me).

When Paval does his macho "for any man, there is no need ..." I find it mildly oppressive, and a bit disingenuous. He'll write programs that say "choose a bell that you can press 5-8 times".

We all know that because of big jumps, for some of us, the heaviest such bell is one that we can press 12 times, which makes the rep scheme break down.

SF sells kettlebells by 2kg, up to 20kg. Why? Because enough people know that big jumps are not always a feature to create the demand for 14kg and 18kg bells.

If your 2RM is 16KGs then the last thing you need to worry about is weight increases... get to where you can press it for 5x(1,2,3,4,5) or 75 total reps... once you can press it 5 ladders with 5 rungs you can press the 24s...

IMO you're trying to micro load the kettlebells, that's not the best way and quite frankly its pointless in regards to the kettlebells... the kettlebell has distinct advantages over the barbell and that's you can get higher amounts of volume (sets and reps) or work (density) without the crushing effect of a barbell... therefore trying to micro load the kettlebells like barbells is not the best strategy... just like trying to get the same volume of barbell work in that you can on kettlebells is ridiculous...

No offense, but you seem to be a bit confused as to proper applications of training strategy... also you weigh a 130lbs if I read that right, you might want to get your bodyweight up some if you're serious about getting stronger

 

[Deleted member 5559]

2) You have to be ready. You have to spend a lot of time with and truly own the 24 before you can just move on to the 32. It takes all the ego / emotion out of it and requires the discipline to follow the program.

I think committing to working with a single bell for a year or two and not caring about the specific reps and sets is a good way to achieve those big jumps.

And guess what? 99% of the time I use the powers of eight: 8, 16, 24, 32, 40 and 48.

High, medium, low
vs.
High, highish, medium highish, medium, medium lowish, lowish mediumish, low, really low

We all know that because of big jumps, for some of us, the heaviest such bell is one that we can press 12 times, which makes the rep scheme break down.

I agree, I think by the book is rarely the optimal solution. Modifying to enable following the concept of using big jumps is more important than following the program to the T in my opinion if I were to rank the importance.

 

[John K]

I think committing to working with a single bell for a year or two and not caring about the specific reps and sets is a good way to achieve those big jumps.

Shoot, that's true.

 

[User 4484]

I haven’t followed this whole thread and may miss the context, but...

Right now I have three standard bells at home. I can press the two lightest but can barely move the heaviest. There is something philosophical about having a chunk of iron in the corner waiting to be dominated.

first I pick it up, perhaps do some suitcase carries. Few deadlifts. Later adding low reps 2H swings. A few weeks/months I can get it up to a goblet position and even later cleans. Start doing some get-ups to the elbow and perhaps to a tall sit. At this time the racked position feels better and I might do a push press. It goes up on my right, feel like strongest man in the world. Did not go up on my left. At this point I know I’m slowly far a head from the first day I lay my hand on the bell and a whole lot closer to press with with both arms than I was the first time.

this, for me, is the thing I love the most with kettlebells, they will be your lifelong partner. And what about the lighter bells? Well, do moving target complex bottoms-up with a light pair of bells and another challenge present itself.

 

[steph31]

I used to do GS and have comp bells from 8 kg to 22 kg in 2 kg increments, so I have been doing a micro-progression of S&S on a modified schedule. I started S&S in April after having not swung a kettlebell in 4 years. I find the 2 kg jumps allow me to keep more power in the later sets and keep my form honest. Works for me and I am really enjoying playing with my bells again.

The 8 kg is only useful for arm bars or bottom-up presses. The 10 kg I use for halo's.

 

[Steve Freides]

And it's encouraging that there are many that are fairly accomplished in strength that agree with me here.

Eric, we don't say you're wrong, only that we know what we do works.

Everyone in leadership at StrongFirst has tried other approaches. E.g., I have done multiple cycles of training in what we call the American style, slowly adding weight over a period of weeks leading up to a competition, and I've had success with that. I've attended a GS coaching certification and trained in that style.

We absolutely don't claim to be the only way to become stronger - never have, never will.

Nothing you've said in this thread is news to us. If you feel like you've found your brothers and sisters in strength here, you'll want to stay; if not, that's OK.

We've presented our case as best we're able - the choice is yours, not ours, to make. We aren't trying to lecture you into feeling like you have to do things our way, and I ask only that you to return the favor.

This will be my last post in this thread.

Thank you.

-S-

 

[watchnerd]

I think committing to working with a single bell for a year or two

But then my other bells get dusty.....

 

[watchnerd]

The 8 kg is only useful for arm bars or bottom-up presses.

Even when using my 8 kg (cute pink cerakote), I find bottom-up presses with competition bells *much harder*.