Kettlebell Does anyone else think the "big jumps" of kettlebells is a little fishy?

[Eric Wilson]

Can I ask a question?

If the underlying "root cause", so to speak, is the need for hypertrophy (which is a body wide change), why focus so much on pressing KBs?

Pressing is a mediocre driver of full body hypertrophy compared to other options -- the progress is slow (even for above-average responders) and the shoulder muscles aren't very big. And I say this as someone who presses 3x a week using both KBs and BBs.

I'm not saying you shouldn't press, but if you're trying to put on mass, I wouldn't make it the cornerstone criteria.

I'd definitely be adding in some chest work (push ups and dips to start), horizontal rows, and a lot more challenging squat and deadlift work than a single loaded kettlebell provides, if you really want to add mass.

I have a variety of goals and constraints -- like all of us.

Choosing this program was a combination of the following:
- significant press volume, working on a weak area
- significant squat volume, previously I hadn't squatted other than 3x5 goblet squats with 24kg. Controlling two 16kg bells during sets of 5x10 squats has certainly strengthed something -- and probably had some conditioning effect.
- the idea that if I manage to gain five pounds, that will be generally useful for future strength focused programs.
- the constraint of having no barbell

This seemed to hit enough goals to make it worth six weeks. I have a different plan for the next six weeks. I won't bother to detail it now, but I'm hopeful that making up my own program will work well enough, given that I'm as inexperienced as I am. (The "everything works" stage should still be in effect.)

After that, I hope to try ROP. Either with 12kg, starting at 5 ladders, or with 16kg, from the beginning.

My goals are general, but I feel that I need to get to where the 16kg is an effective working weight, otherwise many KB complexes feel pretty limited by my press.

 

[Eric Wilson]

I’ll say...
But no worries Eric... these threads often take a life of their own...It’s all good stuff.
By the way... where did the 50 chin-ups come into play?

If you followed the link about the "Prometheus Protocol" program, it calls for chinups twice a week. 10x5 one day, 5x10 another.

 

[Nacho]

@Eric Wilson , if 16kg is too heavy to start ROP with, maybe you should be doing ETK PM or S&S?

 

[Don Fairbanks]

I’ll say...
But no worries Eric... these threads often take a life of their own...It’s all good stuff.
By the way... where did the 50 chin-ups come into play?

Click the link on post 72, a lot of activity.

 

[Don Fairbanks]

As a 50 year old myself, I don't think it'd recommend dirty bulking to a 47 year old.

Plain milk is fine.

My dairy protein of choice is goat milk kefir.

True story, I'm 56 and need to keep it real clean to stay tip top. I dig the goats. I can purchase raw pastured cows milk, but seem to do better with the goat products.

 

[watchnerd]

A lot of work for 47 and also being fairly new to this type of training. You can work with a 16, just not Prometheus style.
Context on the LC CJ's, they are awesome. Most students that fail the SFG II cert fail the strength test, 1 cln and press,, 1 side, weight depends on M/F and weight and age. Let's say you fail, I think you get 6 months to get squared away, to press what you need to press. I could be smokin crack, but my guess, No One programs 5x8 LC Dbl CJ's to pass this test. Some muscle on your shoulders, you bet, but not for pressing a heavier bell.

The weak link in that program, IMHO, is the single leg dead lift.

Single deadlifts are a great unilateral hamstring accessory lift.

But they don't load the spinal erectors in a meaningful way or drive systemic growth like I would want out of a hypertrophy program.

If no barbell, at least some of the time, I'd swap in towel deadlifts.

Or long suitcase carries with bags of canned goods.

Something that was heavy as possible and taxed the back to get growth.

 

[Eric Wilson]

@Eric Wilson , if 16kg is too heavy to start ROP with, maybe you should be doing ETK PM or S&S?

Maybe. My largest KB is 24kg currently. I've gotten to where 10 getups in 10 minutes is routine. That certainly increased my shoulder strength. Many would say I need to start working in the 32kg bell, but I'm not going down that road.

I'm not saying it's a bad plan, but for a man that weighs 60 kg and wants to be better at pressing 16kg, the risk-vs-reward of trying to get there with 32kg TGUs just doesn't seem right. I don't think I'll attempt a 32kg TGU before I can press 24kg.

 

[Eric Wilson]

The weak link in that program, IMHO, is the single leg dead lift.

Single deadlifts are a great unilateral hamstring accessory lift.

But they don't load the spinal erectors in a meaningful way or drive systemic growth like I would want out of a hypertrophy program.

If no barbell, at least some of the time, I'd swap in towel deadlifts.

Or long suitcase carries with bags of canned goods.

Something that was heavy as possible and taxed the back to get growth.

Yeah, the SLDL are not my favorite, but I'm sure I've gain some things from them. I probably won't change anything given that I'm close to done with the program.

 

[watchnerd]

Yeah, the SLDL are not my favorite, but I'm sure I've gain some things from them. I probably won't change anything given that I'm close to done with the program.

They're awesome for balance, both anatomically and the skill of balancing.

Once I get beyond baby weights, I'm less constrained by my hamstrings and more constrained by not falling on my face.

 

[Nacho]

Maybe. My largest KB is 24kg currently. I've gotten to where 10 getups in 10 minutes is routine. That certainly increased my shoulder strength. Many would say I need to start working in the 32kg bell, but I'm not going down that road.

I'm not saying it's a bad plan, but for a man that weighs 60 kg and wants to be better at pressing 16kg, the risk-vs-reward of trying to get there with 32kg TGUs just doesn't seem right. I don't think I'll attempt a 32kg TGU before I can press 24kg.

You know that even Pavel ”allows” you to jump from 24 to 28 in updated S&S?

 

[Eric Wilson]

You know that even Pavel ”allows” you to jump from 24 to 28 in updated S&S?

Same thing applies. As someone that isn't even close to pressing 20kg, can only floor press 24kg for 1 on good days, I want to take a more direct route to improving my press than such a complicated and risky maneuver. Maybe if I was pressing 20kg for reps I would be willing to consider TGU with 28kg.

 

[Alexander Halford]

I'll leave the programs, recipes and else to specialists. However, what I want to say is:
If you're doing the program mentioned above, and have 100 presses a week total, you have a very long way of progressing in press. That's not how you move from 12 kg to 16 kg press working weight. I'd start with 3 times x 100 total 300 presses each week with 12 kg, squeeze this quantity into any program that enables you to move this quantity during the week. GTG style would be my first choice.
The number "300" just represents "a lot". That's my way to say to accumulate a serious quantity of quality work over certain period of time.

 

[Eric Wilson]

I'd start with 3 times x 100 total 300 presses each week with 12 kg, squeeze this quantity into any program that enables you to move this quantity during the week.

Wow. Most think that ROP has pretty high volume, but it's nowhere near 300.

 

[Alexander Halford]

As said, I'm not suggesting a program, because in my opinion your issue has simpler answer, I just suggested a general solution. Don't have to be ROP, take A+A format, apply it to the presses. Take GTG, 20 sets (10 each hand) of 5 through the day with generous rest. You'll be surprised how "to press a lot you need to press a lot" efficiently works.

 

[william bad butt]

Hey, not sure if this is an option for you, but I find that working the floor press (barbell) really builds up your kb presses. It just gets you strong!!!

I think it's a more direct way of building ones upper body strength.

 

[ShawnM]

This!

There is something about the big jumps being ‘fishy’, because it would be really not convenient to try to encourage people to buy 20 different bell sizes and still try to call it a simple or minimalist training tool. So it’s not like there is much choice here, as at some point the barbell is much more convenient cost wise compared to too many kettlebells.

Personally, I like the big jumps and it worked great for me, especially with S&S. But after spending 9 months or so with 40kg my swings are still not where I’d like to see them. So, not buying the 36kg, I’m aware now that I’m missing the sweet spot weight for one arm swinging. Still, I’m not convinced i’d need it for anything else that I could do for reps.

I realized the same thing before gyms closed down in my area this year. I went from OA swings with the 32 to the 40 and things were still not right after a few months. I dropped down to the 36 for 5 EMOM for 16-20minutes daily with little to no issue. When starting out big jumps are fine, once I got heavier in bell size and older in age smaller jumps worked better. That and the jump by 4kg is still about a ten pound jump with one hand, seems like an appropriate number to me.

 

[watchnerd]

Hey, not sure if this is an option for you, but I find that working the floor press (barbell) really builds up your kb presses. It just gets you strong!!!

I think it's a more direct way of building ones upper body strength.

+1

Horizontal pressing (push ups, floor press, bench press) also work the anterior delts and triceps, which are also used in KB pressing. Doubly true if you pick moves that some of the chest out (e.g. floor press, close in push ups).

And the loads can be much heavier.

Even at a bodyweight of 130:

Standard push up = 60-65% bodyweight = 78 pounds / 2 = 39 pounds per arm

39 pounds > 16 kg

 

[Eric Wilson]

OK, you guys have given me plenty of good ideas.

I'm hoping that by implementing various of these ideas I can get 16kg to my 5RM in 8-12 weeks. (It was 2RM last I checked a month ago.) Then I'll do ROP at 16kg, Lord willing.

If I'm not a place where I can start ROP (three ladders of three) then I'll post a form-check video to see if I'm doing something wrong.

 

[william bad butt]

+1

Horizontal pressing (push ups, floor press, bench press) also work the anterior delts and triceps, which are also used in KB pressing. Doubly true if you pick moves that some of the chest out (e.g. floor press, close in push ups).

And the loads can be much heavier.

Even at a bodyweight of 130:

Standard push up = 60-65% bodyweight = 78 pounds / 2 = 39 pounds per arm

39 pounds > 16 kg

Yes. I only mention this because this is how I built my strength. Improving my bench press did way more for my kb press vs working on the kb press, specifically. But this is me. I'm not saying you cant get strong at pressing by just focusing on kb pressing.

 

[watchnerd]

Yes. I only mention this because this is how I built my strength. Improving my bench press did way more for my kb press vs working on the kb press, specifically. But this is me. I'm not saying you cant get strong at pressing by just focusing on kb pressing.

I think your experience is common.

Which is why I was suggesting the OP might want to consider adding horizontal pressing.

More hypertrophy of delts and tris = stronger base for pressing.