Kettlebell Does anyone else think the "big jumps" of kettlebells is a little fishy?
- Thread starter Eric Wilson
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Timmer C
Level 6 Valued Member
Another way of looking at it is that you are finding merit in applying some of the greasing the groove principles. With greasing the groove, one is building their skill and experience rather than trying to build the weight quickly. The fact that you are continuing to explore what works for you and what doesn’t is a valuable thing when so many people don’t do strength training at all or do it just long enough to give up on a New Year’s resolution.
marvinthemartian
Level 5 Valued Member
Oh, I am not offended. I am just surprised you actually are trying to uncover a swindle. And given your own threads I find it weird that you claim people here are trying to push the same answer for different problems. In your press thread alone you were given half a dozen ways to progress and no one complained when you decided to do your own thing (using a 5lbs jump) anyways.
Eric Wilson
Level 6 Valued Member
Thanks -- that's the real point. If the path that works for others doesn't work for you, find something that does work. I'm so much stronger than last year at this time, when I wouldn't have been able to press 12kg for one. (seriously)
And I'm stronger not because of a particular program, or kettlebells vs barbells vs bodyweight, but because I:
- do a workout five days a week
- use a consistent program for at least four weeks at a time
- evaluate what's working every month or two, keeping what seems to be working, and trying new things
And despite my various complaints, the community here has been encouraging to me in this process.
Alexander Halford
Level 8 Valued Member
Without a shade of a negativity or blaming finger, but I need to say that: The problem is always what you do, not with what you're suggested to do. In no way the kettlebell size jumps, programs or else are stopping factors of your progress. It's not the exercises that are dangerous or kettlebells that are too heavy. It's how you work your way around the problem.
You are the 100% master of your success and your failure. Looking for an explanation of why you didn't do this or that is highly counterproductive, if it's not positively driven towards finding a new solution. "I tried it, it didn't work" shouldn't even exist in one's mind.
One of the Pavel's books has a story about a kid that found a kettlebell, but wasn't able to press it with one hand. So he found a steel rod and pressed it for reps with 2 hands, until he was capable to press it with 1 hand. Luckily, the kid wasn't blinded by the existing accepted methodology, he knew nothing, and he had nothing, but this single bell. But hehad a target, which he achieved, and some more...Spirit matters more than "how to".
Power to you.
You are the 100% master of your success and your failure. Looking for an explanation of why you didn't do this or that is highly counterproductive, if it's not positively driven towards finding a new solution. "I tried it, it didn't work" shouldn't even exist in one's mind.
One of the Pavel's books has a story about a kid that found a kettlebell, but wasn't able to press it with one hand. So he found a steel rod and pressed it for reps with 2 hands, until he was capable to press it with 1 hand. Luckily, the kid wasn't blinded by the existing accepted methodology, he knew nothing, and he had nothing, but this single bell. But hehad a target, which he achieved, and some more...Spirit matters more than "how to".
Power to you.
JamesPTA
Level 7 Valued Member
I just keep wondering if there’s some underlying thing going on here. I don’t think it’s KB dogma, but simple math based %RM. ROP calls for a weight you can clean and press 5-8 times. You are going to start ROP with 12kg + 5lbs. That’s only 3.4 lbs lighter than 16kg. Even based on body types, muscle fibers, etc, this should not be that statistical of a difference to not being able to complete 1 rep with the 16kg. I think you’d learn so much more of a video was posted.
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
Eric Wilson
Level 6 Valued Member
"I tried that path, it works for others, but a different path was more effective for me" seems to me a useful message to share -- could help others, who find themsleves struggling to make progress on that original path.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
I haven't really been following this thread in its entirety, but I found out very early on that it was helpful to have a few 10, 15 and 20lb kbs around for stacking. Getting off brand bells in these weights, the handles tend to be quite thin and ready made for stacking.
When I first started really digging in with kettlebells, I found myself adopting all my old strategies from dumbbell and barbell - Pyramids, Drop Sets. Stacking won't work for ballistics but works well enough with most other lifts. I even went so far as to wrap old bike innertubes around the lighter bells so they would stay put more easily.
Ultimately they are just another tool. Sometimes one can learn a great deal from adapting to conditions like an overly heavy bell, and sometimes you're better off getting exactly what you need or changing modes entirely. There is no single item in the fitness world that is indispensable, if you feel like you might injure yourself...stop.
When I first started really digging in with kettlebells, I found myself adopting all my old strategies from dumbbell and barbell - Pyramids, Drop Sets. Stacking won't work for ballistics but works well enough with most other lifts. I even went so far as to wrap old bike innertubes around the lighter bells so they would stay put more easily.
Ultimately they are just another tool. Sometimes one can learn a great deal from adapting to conditions like an overly heavy bell, and sometimes you're better off getting exactly what you need or changing modes entirely. There is no single item in the fitness world that is indispensable, if you feel like you might injure yourself...stop.
Mo04
Level 6 Valued Member
Thanks for reply.
The 10x10 2H swings with the 24kg are challenging, but not too demanding. My plan is to do these 2H swings exclusively for a week or two (to help acclimatise to the new weight).
After that, my plan is to do 1H swings: 16kg, 24kg, 16kg, 16kg, 16kg.
For the 16kg sets - as they are relatively easy, I'll do them "Simply Sinister" style - combining 1H swings with C&P (x2) and TGU L+R (I was doing this method whilst waiting for 24kg to become available).
The Simply Sinister Training Plan | StrongFirst
Managing the suck of training to reach Sinister was not the problem. Finding time consistently to do this was. Thus, the Simply Sinister program was born.
www.strongfirst.com
For the 24kg sets - I'll try standard 1H swings. Failing that, I'll try 1H dead swings. Failing even that, I'll just do these 2H and test transitioning to 1H at the start of each week.
The TGU is wobbly, but I'm just able to do the S&S prescribed 16kg, 24kg, 16kg, 16kg, 16kg. I've been able to do all 16kg sets without any rest so I have to consciously pause at each phase of a 16kg rep to slow it way down. Dont have that problem with 24kg - these are very slow and require a lot of concentration.
Thanks again.
Whosonfirst
Level 8 Valued Member
@Eric Wilson -Hi Eric, I'm certainly no expert on here(SF). Most of my background has been with barbells, and at almost 70 y.o., my strength has declined by almost 40% from just 12-15 years ago, and gains come very slowly, if at all. But my question is, just how much are you eating every day? I'd be curious as to how many calories and grams of protein you're consuming. I really admire your tenacity, and believe it or not, you inspire me to regain some of my lost strength. Now if I could just eat like I was 25 again.
Whosonfirst
Level 8 Valued Member
Stupid question here, rather than stack kettlebells, why not just get a set of adjustable dumbbells? If you fail to press a 20 or 24kg. kettlebell, often a dumbbell loaded with 5 lbs. lower, you can press. And with 1.25 lbs plates, it could be 2.5, or 7.5lbs. lower., rather than trying to grip, two kbells, especially with small hands.
Steve W.
Level 8 Valued Member
I love having KBs in smaller increments (I even have a pair of 26kg bells). Especially for high volume snatching and for complexes, having just the right size bell (or very close to it) makes a big difference.
But for pressing, there are LOTS of creative strategies for bridging the gap from one bell size to another (whether that's a larger or smaller increment). However, just doing lots of volume with a much lighter bell has never worked well for me.
Probably my favorite strategy to acclimate to a bell that is a little too heavy to MP is the long push press (from one of the ETK special reports).
Do a front squat with the bell racked, keeping the working arm tight like in the bottom position of a press. Then, just as you lock out the squat, initiate the press. It gives a little extra boost to the press, but from a tight press rack position, where you are pressing out from the beginning. It's not like a traditional push press where you are using leg drive to launch the bell out of the bottom ballistically [or "quasi-ballistically" if Kenny is reading this ;-) ] and only pressing it out at the top, which for many people doesn't have a whole lot of carry over to a strict press.
Also, I find that just doing as much work as you can with the target pressing bell (or even a heavier bell if you have one) helps to acclimate to it -- deadlifts, cleans, swings, carries, front squats, whatever you are able to do. It all helps build comfort with the heavier bell so your nervous system doesn't subconsciously perceive it as threatening and trigger an inhibitory response.
But for pressing, there are LOTS of creative strategies for bridging the gap from one bell size to another (whether that's a larger or smaller increment). However, just doing lots of volume with a much lighter bell has never worked well for me.
Probably my favorite strategy to acclimate to a bell that is a little too heavy to MP is the long push press (from one of the ETK special reports).
Do a front squat with the bell racked, keeping the working arm tight like in the bottom position of a press. Then, just as you lock out the squat, initiate the press. It gives a little extra boost to the press, but from a tight press rack position, where you are pressing out from the beginning. It's not like a traditional push press where you are using leg drive to launch the bell out of the bottom ballistically [or "quasi-ballistically" if Kenny is reading this ;-) ] and only pressing it out at the top, which for many people doesn't have a whole lot of carry over to a strict press.
Also, I find that just doing as much work as you can with the target pressing bell (or even a heavier bell if you have one) helps to acclimate to it -- deadlifts, cleans, swings, carries, front squats, whatever you are able to do. It all helps build comfort with the heavier bell so your nervous system doesn't subconsciously perceive it as threatening and trigger an inhibitory response.
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Eric Wilson
Level 6 Valued Member
I haven't gotten to the point of counting, precisely, but I think I'm in the neighborhood of 1 gram protein / 1 lb bodyweight. Haven't thought about calories at all, really.
So I'm trying to make sure to eat enough, but it's tricky with five kids. Sometimes there isn't enough for everyone to have a big second portion.
And I've got several that always want more.Glad to hear that you are motivated by my efforts. Training can be beneficial even for those of us will never press a 32kg bell, right? (I'll always be a boy* in Pavel's eyes, but that won't stop me from improving.)
* Pavel indicates that pressing 32kg is a requirement for manhood here: Kettlebell strength standards -- I'll be generous, and assume that it was a tongue in cheek remark, because it would be an asinine statement if serious.
Whosonfirst
Level 8 Valued Member
Well typically 130 grams of Protein at 130 bwt, should be okay. Some of the pwr lifter forums I've been on, like to go with 1.5 X bwt. for grams. I've worked with two or three competitive bodybuilders, and they were closer to 2Xbwt, and eating meals a few extra times a day while at work. Five kids, say no more, haha.I haven't gotten to the point of counting, precisely, but I think I'm in the neighborhood of 1 gram protein / 1 lb bodyweight. Haven't thought about calories at all, really.
So I'm trying to make sure to eat enough, but it's tricky with five kids. Sometimes there isn't enough for everyone to have a big second portion.
Glad to hear that you are motivated by my efforts. Training can be beneficial even for those of us will never press a 32kg bell, right? (I'll always be a boy* in Pavel's eyes, but that won't stop me from improving.)
* Pavel indicates that pressing 32kg is a requirement for manhood here: Kettlebell strength standards -- I'll be generous, and assume that it was a tongue in cheek remark, because it would be an asinine statement if serious.
barrak
Level 6 Valued Member
At Wendy's, I can barely finish half my sandwich. Meanwhile, my skinny 16 year-old boy (cross-country runner, 28" pants) would order and eat two sandwiches while eyeing my unfinished one, which he would promptly devour. On the way out after such a lunch, he would typically, and innocently, ask: "what are we having for dinner?"
Ahhhh.... Youth!
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
If you already have a bunch of $ invested in heavier kbs and use them for exercises that are awkward with dumbbell, the small ones are chump change by comparison. If you have the dumbbells, you might not even want to bother with KBs.
Whosonfirst
Level 8 Valued Member
So, you don't think cleaning and pressing two kettlebells in one hand is more awkward, than one adjustable or solid dumbell? I was going by the OP's situation. Not mine. Dumbbells can be gotten a lot cheaper than kbells. Not talking about snatching, or kettlebell specific exercises, but Pressing. Cleaning and pressing two kbells(in one hand) or kbells with plates duct taped on the side or bottom just seems a little (insert your fav. word) to me. I've worked with both dumbbells and kbells for at least 15 years, and can't think of many exercises with dbells that seemed awkward. The first few times you handle a kbell to clean and press with an off center weight fits that description. Both are great and highly interchangeable.
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North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
I found for pressing, TGU, Bent press, Windmills, jerks, push press, using stacked KBs was not problematic. Repetitive Cleans obviously not too cool. If you already have the KB and want to microload pressing movements, stacking them is a good way to go, esp in context - the jump with a standard KB is too big to to be done with confidence in the safety factor.
This also in context of KB specific programming. Alluded to in my response - just use a different tool if you think safety is being compromised, dumbbells being a good choice.
This also in context of KB specific programming. Alluded to in my response - just use a different tool if you think safety is being compromised, dumbbells being a good choice.
I don’t know Pavel but my interpretation of that statement is more along the lines of traditional rites of passage into manhood - similar to the Hafsterker and fullsterker stones, to see if you were worth half a man or a full man (in context of strength for a fishing vessel I believe).
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