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Kettlebell Double Cleans Only Program

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Monogatari90

Level 4 Valued Member
Hi all,

I’ve been having some trouble with my shoulders recently and experiencing some pain when bells are overhead (I’ve noticed that hanging has actually helped alleviate a lot of the pain - so thank you SF for the recent article), which has gotten me thinking if it would be sustainable to do double cleans several times a week as a sort of temporary standalone program while my shoulder heals.

I’ve been using a 24 and 20kg bell and switching between hands every set - mostly doing 10x10 which takes me around 20 minutes to complete.

Anyway, if this was the kind of thing I did exclusively for a few months, does anyone see a major problem (or have any advice to supplement)?
 
@Monogatari90
Double cleans have been a staple of my A+A training over the last several years. I stick to sets of 5, rest generously between sets and have done up to 62 sets in a session (but 20-30 is more typical).

Double cleans and single snatches are my preferred ballistic hinge drills, more so than swings.

BTW, as a veteran of rotator cuff surgeries on both shoulders (both injured playing basketball), here are some of my big bang for the buck shoulder tuneups (my experience, not medical advice) that have kept my shoulders feeling great since my second surgery:
--Original Strength crawling and rocking variations.
--The David Allen band pull-apart super series:

--Mace and clubbell swinging.
--Dislocates using a PVC pipe (I didn't start noticing results from these until I did them very consistently and patiently over time, keeping my hands at a comfortable distance and not trying to force progress).
--KB snatches.
--The D I C K Hartzell band stretches (I have to write his first name that way or the language filter makes a mess of it -- the filter does not approve of the nickname for Richard), especially the set up with the band looped around the elbow and hand in the video below. I do my own variations of this kind of stretching, but I find that the band set up that captures the elbow makes a huge difference (and IMO should be widely used in physical therapy circles, although none of the many physical therapists I've worked with had ever seen it before):


Things that have been counterproductive:
--Any sort of wall slide variation.
--Focusing on "packing the shoulders" when lifting overhead. In my opinion and experience, rigidly keeping the shoulders "down and back" (as "shoulder packing" is commonly taught and implemented) is a recipe for impingement.

Things that have been of marginal benefit:
--I, Y, T, W exercises.
--Scaption.
 
Thanks for this - great stuff! Very much appreciate the shoulder drill tips.

Regarding A+A style cleans, it seems like it would take a substantial amount of time to complete 30+ sets. Have you found benefit from a lower number of sets? Asking mainly due to time constraints I have in the mornings when I exercise
Steve W. said:
@Monogatari90
Double cleans have been a staple of my A+A training over the last several years. I stick to sets of 5, rest generously between sets and have done up to 62 sets in a session (but 20-30 is more typical).

Double cleans and single snatches are my preferred ballistic hinge drills, more so than swings.

BTW, as a veteran of rotator cuff surgeries on both shoulders (both injured playing basketball), here are some of my big bang for the buck shoulder tuneups (my experience, not medical advice) that have kept my shoulders feeling great since my second surgery:
--Original Strength crawling and rocking variations.
--The David Allen band pull-apart super series:

--Mace and clubbell swinging.
--Dislocates using a PVC pipe (I didn't start noticing results from these until I did them very consistently and patiently over time, keeping my hands at a comfortable distance and not trying to force progress).
--KB snatches.
--The D I C K Hartzell band stretches (I have to write his first name that way or the language filter makes a mess of it -- the filter does not approve of the nickname for Richard), especially the set up with the band looped around the elbow and hand in the video below. I do my own variations of this kind of stretching, but I find that the band set up that captures the elbow makes a huge difference (and IMO should be widely used in physical therapy circles, although none of the many physical therapists I've worked with had ever seen it before):


Things that have been counterproductive:
--Any sort of wall slide variation.
--Focusing on "packing the shoulders" when lifting overhead. In my opinion and experience, rigidly keeping the shoulders "down and back" (as "shoulder packing" is commonly taught and implemented) is a recipe for impingement.

Things that have been of marginal benefit:
--I, Y, T, W exercises.
--Scaption.
Click to expand...
 
@Steve W.

Curious what bells you use for double aa cleans vs single aa snatches. Are the rest periods usually similar? Working on something similar myself. I usually go with double 28kgs for cleans and single 28 snatch. Rest seems otm to every 90 seconds range for sets of 5 but im new to aa and not sure im doing it perfectly yet.
 
Monogatari90 said:
Regarding A+A style cleans, it seems like it would take a substantial amount of time to complete 30+ sets. Have you found benefit from a lower number of sets?
Click to expand...

I think of 20 sets of 5 as a good baseline session (the equivalent total reps to 10 x 10). I stick to sets of 5 instead of 10 because:
--You can use heavier bells.
--The work time of each set is a little more in the alactic range and takes less recovery between sets compared to sets of 10.
--The total weight is heavier than single-bell swings, so it's easier to stay consistently powerful and explosive with shorter sets.
--Even though each bell is the same size or lighter than what you would be using for one-arm swings, your grip gets less rest because both hands are working every set.

I don't always use a clock for my A+A sessions, but depending on the load and the planned length of the session, if I do use a clock I'll typically do a set every 1:20-2:00, which is more than I would need for 1-arm swings.

At 1:20, 20 sets would take about 26 minutes. At 2:00, 20 sets would take 40 minutes.

Experiment and see how you recover between sets and from day to day and session to session. When I use a clock I calibrate my intervals so that I can recover sufficiently at the end of my planned session (at the beginning it feels like I am resting longer than I need because I will need that time later in the session). Through experience, I have a pretty good idea how long my intervals need to be depending on the load and planned session length, and I tend to purposely err on the side of more rest.

Provx said:
@Steve W.

Curious what bells you use for double aa cleans vs single aa snatches. Are the rest periods usually similar? Working on something similar myself. I usually go with double 28kgs for cleans and single 28 snatch. Rest seems otm to every 90 seconds range for sets of 5 but im new to aa and not sure im doing it perfectly yet.
Click to expand...

Yes, it generally works out the same for me too -- the same size bells for double cleans and single snatches (28s are my most used working bells too).

My rest periods for double cleans are longer than for single snatches. My breathing needs more time to recover with double cleans, and my grip needs a little more recovery because both hands are working every set (even through rep for rep, cleans are easier on the grip). I'm more likely to use something in the range of 1:20 for snatches and more like 2:00 for double cleans. There are mace and clubbell drills I will do in A+A style on the minute, but I pretty much never go that quickly with KBs. 90 seconds is definitely in a reasonable range, but it's more about how YOU feel and recover than any specific number.

In some ways, it's better to go by feel instead of by the clock. But I mostly use a clock because it's more automatic. I don't have to make decisions during a session about when I'm ready for the next set, which I find mentally liberating. I can just focus on technique and power. As long as I keep the interval long enough, it works for me. I never worry about whether my interval is too long, only that it isn't too short at the end of the session.
 
@Steve W.

Yes exactly i know your not really supposed to need a timer for aa work but i really like to use one so i can be brainless when training and focus only on being powerful.

Thanks for the info
 
Double cleans are great, and I agree with the consensus of the posts above.

However, based on the OP’s statement about “pain when the bells are overhead” I think medical intervention would be wise, even if bar hangs seem to help. It’s almost always more practical to work to eliminate pain than to work around it.
 
@Steve W. How do you programme mace swings in with your A&A work?
For A&A I'm alternating double clean days (24s) and snatch days (32) and do 1 arm 5kg mace swings L&R repeating 10-20 times before each, as a warm up.
 
Stuart Elliott said:
@Steve W. How do you programme mace swings in with your A&A work?
For A&A I'm alternating double clean days (24s) and snatch days (32) and do 1 arm 5kg mace swings L&R repeating 10-20 times before each, as a warm up.
Click to expand...

I do mace and clubbell swinging each as the main focus of a session. So I basically do a rotation of one session of A+A snatches, the next session clubbells, the next session A+A cleans, and the next session mace.

On the clubbell and mace days, I'll usually start off with 2-3 sets of 5 KB double front squats and 2 x 5 or 3 x 3 KB single MPs or seesaw MPs.

For clubbells a typical session (such as the session I did a few days ago) might be:
--200 continuous mills with a 20lb clubbell, switching hands every 10.
--Start the clock on a 1:00 interval and do:
--10 shield casts (like a one-arm 360) x 20 repeats with a 25lb clubbell.
--10 reverse mills x 16 repeats with a 15lb clubbell.
--5 double clubbell swipes x 14 repeats with two 20lb clubbells.​
--A little low volume playtime with some variety moves that I'm not really training but like to mess around with.

For maces a typical session (such as what I did yesterday):
--Start the clock on a 1:20 interval and do (all two-handed with my Strongergrip mace loaded with 2 x 10lb plates on the end for a total weight of a little more than 30lbs):
--5 360s in each direction (10 total reps) x 2o repeats, switching grips each set.
--5 10-2s (10 total reps) x 20 repeats, switching grips each set.
​
On a weekend, or during the summer when I have more free time, I'll also try to get in some low intensity steady cardio on the NordicTrack ski machine on mace or clubbell days.
​
The mace and clubbell swinging is a lot lower intensity than KB ballistics, even at a relaxed A+A pace, with a much lower recovery demand. It's almost like active rest between KB sessions. Not that it's exactly "rest," but it's a lot more relaxed, more about finesse than power. I just find it great fun to do, I feel like it complements KB work really well, and it leaves me feeling both loose and strongly tied together.

I am starting to give Q&D a go this week, so I have to do some thinking and experimenting to figure out how the mace and clubbell swinging might fit in with it.
 
Last edited:
H. Mac said:
Double cleans are great, and I agree with the consensus of the posts above.

However, based on the OP’s statement about “pain when the bells are overhead” I think medical intervention would be wise, even if bar hangs seem to help. It’s almost always more practical to work to eliminate pain than to work around it.
Click to expand...
Very much appreciate the concern, but admittedly I posted a bit lazily at first mostly because I wanted to know if cleans only would be an ok program and less to get into injury specifics.

My problem is more specifically that I work at a desk 12+ hours a day and because of that (and bad posture I am sure) my rhomboids are pretty susceptible to injury. So it’s less that I can’t put up weight overhead without pain, and more that doing multiple presses or repetitive overhead motions tends to put me at risk for a rhomboid pull. I’m doing some exercises and stretches to keep everything healthy, but given that a deep rhomboid strain can keep me out of the gym for several weeks, I am trying to see what’s possible for overall health and fitness if I just refrain from doing anything repetitive overhead.

I’ve been doing the batwing (I think that’s what it’s called) and dead hangs and have been feeling pretty good. If anyone has other tips I would love to hear them as well!
 
Steve W. said:
I do mace and clubbell swinging each as the main focus of a session. So I basically do a rotation of one session of A+A snatches, the next session clubbells, the next session A+A snatches, and the next session mace.

On the clubbell and mace days, I'll usually start off with 2-3 sets of 5 KB double front squats and 2 x 5 or 3 x 3 KB single MPs or seesaw MPs.

For clubbells a typical session (such as the session I did a few days ago) might be:
--200 continuous mills with a 20lb clubbell, switching hands every 10.
--Start the clock on a 1:00 interval and do:
--10 shield casts (like a one-arm 360) x 20 repeats with a 25lb clubbell.
--10 reverse mills x 16 repeats with a 15lb clubbell.
--5 double clubbell swipes x 14 repeats with two 20lb clubbells.​
--A little low volume playtime with some variety moves that I'm not really training but like to mess around with.

For maces a typical session (such as what I did yesterday):
--Start the clock on a 1:20 interval and do (all two-handed with my Strongergrip mace loaded with 2 x 10lb plates on the end for a total weight of a little more than 30lbs):
--5 360s in each direction (10 total reps) x 2o repeats, switching grips each set.
--5 10-2s (10 total reps) x 20 repeats, switching grips each set.
​
On a weekend, or during the summer when I have more free time, I'll also try to get in some low intensity steady cardio on the NordicTrack ski machine on mace or clubbell days.
​
The mace and clubbell swinging is a lot lower intensity than KB ballistics, even at a relaxed A+A pace, with a much lower recovery demand. It's almost like active rest between KB sessions. Not that it's exactly "rest," but it's a lot more relaxed, more about finesse than power. I just find it great fun to do, I feel like it complements KB work really well, and it leaves me feeling both loose and strongly tied together.

I am starting to give Q&D a go this week, so I have to do some thinking and experimenting to figure out how the mace and clubbell swinging might fit in with it.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your feedback I'll try alternating A&A and mace days. I like your idea of integrating a few presses on the mace days.

I started alternating A&A double cleans and snatches after reading that you had success with them. I like the change of focus between single and double kettlebell work and the different effect it has on the body but yet still being high volume work.
 
John Grahill said:
Geoff Neupert has a double clean program in Express Ultra reloaded tgat seems pretty cool....
Click to expand...
Any chance you’d be able to point me in the direction of a resource that shows what that program consists of? If I understand correctly, Neupert is no longer selling his materials(?)
 
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