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Kettlebell Double LCCJ every day - can it be done?

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Paul_Cole9

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Thinking of mixing my training up and going to LC with 16s, taking it easy, for about 20 minutes every day. If I stick with it I will test once a month with 24s and, when I can do 10 good quality reps, starting to use those. Then the same for 32s.

Is this possible as ong as I take it easy, or will systemic stresses be a bit much?
 
I've been doing a tonne of LC over the last year and if you mix in days of OALC (one arm long cycle) it makes doing daily practice much more reasonable. 20 min comfortable pace OALC, playing with the time between hand switches has almost endless possibilities and is like going for a nice steady jog....without all the running ;) but of course take days of rest when your body needs them.
 
Taking it easy to me means you're starting with a weight you can do for 15-20 quality reps. Remember that long-cycle isn't about the movement, it's about the way you're doing the movement. LCCJ means you're trying to do as many reps as possible within a certain time-frame before putting those weights down, taking a breather, and doing it again. If you're doing 4-5 reps (what "taking it easy" would mean to me if I could only do 10 quality reps with the weight), you're practicing the clean and jerk, but not long-cycle per se.
 
@JamesO great point.
I guess it depends on goal. LC is all about efficiency, if your goal is high reps then LC practice is great. it is poss to use the 24 or 32's and get 60+ reps in 10 mins, but it will be a grueling and exhausting 10 mins and not something you just jump into, it take most people years of practice (pros can get 100+!!!!). but if your goal is to be able to do 10 C&J reps then more of a "strength" focus may be better.
for about 20 minutes every day
Would this be 20 mins straight or easy reps with lots of rest?

either way in response to your actual questions......It depends haha (sorry)
 
the jump from 16s for 20 minutes to 32s for 20 minutes is extreme - sounds like the guy who starts off squatting with 135 and figures by adding a measly 10 pounds per week to the bar he'll be squatting 500 pounds within a year - lccj is no joke, your body will be stressed - to answer your question i believe you will run into issues using this as a daily practice. LCCJ is demanding and you will benefit greatly rest days - it's rare to find knowledgable coaches promoting lcci practice more than 3x per week. you need recovery with this type of training. daily swings - sure 100 per day - but not lccj. others may disagree, but i think daily lccj is a recipe for burnout, potential injury and missing you goals.
 
Geoff Neupert has a program called the Real Muscle Building Fat Burner which has 12 week progression with a pair of KBs, which could potentially see an increase in weight at the end. Probably worth a look. Only 3 times a week, but at 30mins a time a similar amount of volume to what you are looking for. It uses a 10RM for LCCJ and builds from there.
 
@JamesO great point.
I guess it depends on goal. LC is all about efficiency, if your goal is high reps then LC practice is great. it is poss to use the 24 or 32's and get 60+ reps in 10 mins, but it will be a grueling and exhausting 10 mins and not something you just jump into, it take most people years of practice (pros can get 100+!!!!). but if your goal is to be able to do 10 C&J reps then more of a "strength" focus may be better.

Would this be 20 mins straight or easy reps with lots of rest?

either way in response to your actual questions......It depends haha (sorry)

20 minutes straight?! If only that were possible, my friend! :) Maybe with 2-3kg bells or something...

Easy reps, believe me!! Otherwise it'd kill me!! To an easy stop, 2 or even 3 reps short of what I think I could get.

I would do one set all out once a month and test how many reps I can get with the next bells up (8kg up) once a month. Apart from that I would take it easy.
 
Geoff Neupert has a program called the Real Muscle Building Fat Burner which has 12 week progression with a pair of KBs, which could potentially see an increase in weight at the end. Probably worth a look. Only 3 times a week, but at 30mins a time a similar amount of volume to what you are looking for. It uses a 10RM for LCCJ and builds from there.

Thanks, I'll have a look.
 
Taking it easy to me means you're starting with a weight you can do for 15-20 quality reps. Remember that long-cycle isn't about the movement, it's about the way you're doing the movement. LCCJ means you're trying to do as many reps as possible within a certain time-frame before putting those weights down, taking a breather, and doing it again. If you're doing 4-5 reps (what "taking it easy" would mean to me if I could only do 10 quality reps with the weight), you're practicing the clean and jerk, but not long-cycle per se.

I didn't know that...I always thought the 'long cycle' in LCCJ somehow just referred to the recleaning before each rep.
 
I've been doing a tonne of LC over the last year and if you mix in days of OALC (one arm long cycle) it makes doing daily practice much more reasonable. 20 min comfortable pace OALC, playing with the time between hand switches has almost endless possibilities and is like going for a nice steady jog....without all the running ;) but of course take days of rest when your body needs them.

Interesting stuff, thanks. Which have you got most strength benefits from? I have always tended to think (based on probably a misguided hunch) that one arm is better for strength because you can use more weight. But Pavel (and Mahler) seem to believe that doubles are better (maybe even with lower weights, but a higher total than you use for OALC - say 2x16s as opposed to 1 x 24) for the systemic effect.

And what programming did you use? I am one of these who needs to know what they are doing, when, and how progression is measured.

Yeah, it does MY head in, too. :)
 
I have had a bit oof a eureka moment, when the solution was there all along - I will alternate the days between LC and swings, with the next bell up from the ones I'm using for LC. It'll enable me to push a little more in the LC and to get all the benefits of the swing.

Sometimes the solution is staring at your confused face! :)

Could also possibly do the original PM, or the 10 swings, 1 get-up program

Aren't kettlebells great?
 
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@Paul_Cole9 I found that using one arm helped me with endurance cause I could switch arms (if I was going for 20+ mins straight I would switch hands every 1, 2, 3, mins) where as 5-6 mins was my average working time with doubles. As far as which added more strength, I'm not sure. This is where the difference in focus or goal comes in. GS style Long cycle is all about endurance, as many reps as you can get in typically 10 mins (but some times 5 mins) without putting the bells down (and switching hand only once on single arm). If you're looking at C&J for strength then maybe working for 5-20 mins straight isn't the way you want to go. It all depends on what your goal is. You can get really strong practicing GS LC but its a different approach to training and a very different technique than perhaps what you're used to. however, yes you do still re-clean before each jerk. There is a style called BOLT that seems to put the two approaches together, 5 min sets, hand switch and resting the bell as needed. Check out this forum post, some people as sharing about it towards the end of the thread Kettlebell Long Cycle

As far as my training program, I didn't really follow anything specific. I worked with a coach in a group setting once per week and work on technique stuff and cycled through one arm and two arm days during the week. my two arm days were generally short sets 2-6 mins and my one arm days were generally longer sets. I had a goal of 100 reps in 10 mins with the 16's and with GS LC training there is a certain amount of "embracing the suck" that has to happen. its not always the most fun. However, there are a tonne of training programs out there and a few great ones that were suggested in the forum I mentioned above.
I'm just getting into GS LC and I've only competed once but here's the vid of my 10 min set so you can see the difference in technique. https://youtu.be/jb35LwktZ4I
 
Thanks, KCF. Your technique on the video is very fluid. 10 minutes straight...Forgive me if I don't embrace that suck!! That's some power and endurance, mentally as well. You make it look absolutely effortless.

Sorry to be a pain in the arse but, if you were me, programming for everyday training for up to 30mins, strength, dense muscle with conditioning as a by-product, what would you be doing, from the BOLT thread, or otherwise?

I know you're way more advanced than I but if I have an idea from someone with the know-how, I can scale it to my own abilities.

Anyway, some idea of my own...

GOALS: strength and dense muscle, conditioning/fat loss as by-product

IDEAS (all with 3x 5 goblet squats to start, 5 mins stretching, after). All continued ad infinitum:

1. One bell. Do 100 C & J, 50 each arm. When can do this with equal work/rest time in sets of 10 (about 20 minutes) move up to the next bell 8kg up. Yes, very reminiscent of a part of S & S ;-)

2. Singles for 20-30 minutes a day, as many reps whilst remaining comfortable/in aerobic zone as per talk test. Day 1 - 32kg, day 2 24kg, day 3 16kg. Add a 40kg and drop the 16 when feel up to it.

3. As per number 2 but just use a 24 and a 32 so the practice is more strength-focused. When feel up to it, add a 40kg and drop the 24kg. Once every 2 weeks rep out with lightest of the 2 bells being used. Because I figure that if you can C & J the 32kg comfortably the 16kg doesn't really add much by way of strength.

1-3 x 5 goblet squats to start, 5 minutes of stretching (with arm bars for the shoulders) to finisg.
 
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Thanks @Paul_Cole9 it was 6 months of practice to get to that point and there is still work to do on form/tech/fitness, my goal is 20's for next year.

To be honest though, 20 mins of one arm long cycle (C&J) with the 32 or the 24, even at an "easy" pace would be grueling and not something to just jump into. I'm not sure where you are "strength/fitness wise" but if your goal is to be able to work for the whole 20 mins, my suggestion would be to spend some time with the 16 or 20, get comfortable with them before moving on. When I first decided that I wanted to compete in GS Long Cycle, ignorance and inexperience were alive and well with me and I registered for the Canadian Nationals in 2 x 24's thinking that I was strong enough and could just train harder......That quickly changed after 3 days of training haha. Patience is a virtue kettlebells demand.

One idea could be, you can start with 20 mins broken up into chunks, say 4 sets of 5 mins, switching hands every min with a good few mins active recovery between sets. once you can get through all sets with the 16 comfortably, you could work the 20 into one set, then two sets, then three and so on. you could also use one session to stick with the 16 and increase the time of each set while reducing the number of sets (3 sets of 6 mins for example). Or increase the time between hand switches (2 mins on each hand for example). Keep in mind though that the C&J is a complex and involved movement so its important to have deloading days/phases to help keep your CNS from getting fried, take rest days as needed. I love the idea of daily practice and do it myself most days of the week at varying intensity, but sometimes the thought of C&Jing is just not appealing, those generally become my mobility/stability days and my body thanks me for them.
If you are interested in training for GS long cycle, there are plenty of good training programs out there (» Blog Archive » My Murphy-Proof One Arm Long Cycle Kettlebell Progression For example as shared on the longcycle forum post). And the BOLT "system" might be right up your alley!

Gob Sqts and arm bars will be a great idea to start, maybe Halos as well.

I hope that all makes sense.
Does anyone else have any suggestions or feedback? there is so much knowledge in this community!
 
I think the original question is not good. The question shouldn't be whether it is possible but whether it allows you to make fast progress.
To find out start with two or three days for two weeks and then a day. Have an honest look whether you make better or worse progress. Otherwise you train just to train.
 
I think the original question is not good. The question shouldn't be whether it is possible but whether it allows you to make fast progress.
To find out start with two or three days for two weeks and then a day. Have an honest look whether you make better or worse progress. Otherwise you train just to train.

Isn't this the same with anything, though? When I was doing S & S each session was way easier doing it 3 times a week than doing it daily.
 
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