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Kettlebell Dry Fighting Weight Results

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Thanks! Much appreciate the thorough response. Have you run ROP before? I'm essentially trying to decide between the two as my first C&P program. I have heavier single & lighter double bells available.
I have quite a lot of experience with ROP. ROP is really a single bell program and doesn't include squats (you can do squats in addition to ROP, but they aren't part of the program). Sessions are defined by sets/reps/volume; rest periods are not specified. ROP also includes swings and snatches in addition to C&P.

Although you can do DFW with a single bell, I think of it as a double bell program. Double cleans and front squats are two of my favorite drills, but I essentially never do single cleans and front squats. DFW sessions are defined by rep scheme and session length, but sets/density/volume are autoregulated. DFW does not include swings and snatches.

ROP is also a much longer program. The full ROP progression is 13 weeks, although you can stretch it out or compress it. DFW is 5 weeks, the last of which is a deload.

So basically it's a choice of singles or doubles, no squats (or supplementary squats) or lots of squats, longer term or shorter term, timed sessions or untimed sessions, swings and snatches or no swings and snatches (or supplementary swings and snatches).

Both are good choices.
 
I have quite a lot of experience with ROP. ROP is really a single bell program and doesn't include squats (you can do squats in addition to ROP, but they aren't part of the program). Sessions are defined by sets/reps/volume; rest periods are not specified. ROP also includes swings and snatches in addition to C&P.

Although you can do DFW with a single bell, I think of it as a double bell program. Double cleans and front squats are two of my favorite drills, but I essentially never do single cleans and front squats. DFW sessions are defined by rep scheme and session length, but sets/density/volume are autoregulated. DFW does not include swings and snatches.

ROP is also a much longer program. The full ROP progression is 13 weeks, although you can stretch it out or compress it. DFW is 5 weeks, the last of which is a deload.

So basically it's a choice of singles or doubles, no squats (or supplementary squats) or lots of squats, longer term or shorter term, timed sessions or untimed sessions, swings and snatches or no swings and snatches (or supplementary swings and snatches).

Both are good choices.
I understand the mechanics of each program and the differences, appreciate the summary.
What did you find as far as differences in results? Would you recommend one program or the other for different goals?
 
I understand the mechanics of each program and the differences, appreciate the summary.
What did you find as far as differences in results? Would you recommend one program or the other for different goals?
I can't really separate goals from the mechanics of the programs.

I choose programs based on what process I want to engage in. because they include drills I want to practice and get better at, are organized in a way that works for me logistically, and that I think I'd enjoy, and that make sense in the context of my previous and possibly future training (which could be a more direct progression or more of a change of pace or direction).

If I were choosing between ROP and DFW:
I'd do ROP if I wanted to practice and get better at the one arm press, swings, and snatches. I'd also lean more toward ROP if I felt like doing a program defined by volume, where I can just focus on getting my reps and not worry about the time (which I sometimes prefer).

I'd do DFW if I wanted to practice and get better at double clean and presses and double front squats. I'd also lean toward DFW is I felt like doing a program defined by time, where I can just set the timer and not worry about the volume (which I sometimes prefer).
 
My results with 2x24, which were my 5RM, are as follows:
Week 1: 61 reps
Week 2: 70 reps
Week 3: 68 reps (I decided to cut one session short halfway because of a headache and a resulting sloppy technique)
Week 4: 75 reps

As per recommendation, I took my rest seriously and rested for maybe a bit longer than necessary sometimes.

The 2x24 are now a 8RM, although the 8th rep was a bit too grindy.

I was in a caloric surplus so I did not lose much weight. My scale fat% gives me wonky numbers pretty often so I generally don't take it seriously on a week to week basis. Belt size test is also not applicable because the belt that I use does not have holes in it :). However, I'm definitely observing better shoulder and arm size and definition. Although, I suppose that some of it could be a carryover from Giant 1.0 I ran before this (in case hypertrophy gains happen with some delay).

Overall, I'm really happy about this program and I'm looking forward to running it again when 2x28 are a 5RM (3RM now).
 
after life just got in the way for a few weeks....covid and a bit of other crap....it's time to get back on board. After two weeks of simple play i will start DFW tomorrow, but more conservative in weight. So starting of with a Solid 8 TRM.
 
So the first day of DFW is over. Unfortunately I had to use my dumbbells because I forgot my bells at work. So today 2x25Kg DB a total of 7 full laps plus 1. I took it moderately because the clean with the DB is also a bit more uncomfortable than with the bells and the nervous system is also more stressed, in my opinion. Still very satisfied and I think the choice of weight over the 5RM was okay.
 
Dry Fighting Weight results = !!! SUCCESS !!!
My first run of DFW...

20221113pre-test
2022111530228.8 @ 25.85 h:w 0.98
2022111725
2022111932
2022112133228.6 @ 26.57 h:w 0.99starting Hit Target Meal Plan "dieting"
2022112322
2022112545
2022112843224.8 @ 26.05 h:w 0.98
2022113040
20221202skipskip - needed to recover for Judo competition
2022120651220.6 @ 25.90 h:w 0.983x12345 1x123 ran out of time to complete the last ladder
2022120844
2022121052nothing but sets of 4
202212139222.0 @ 25.47 h:w 0.97
20221215test

Pre test MP Results:
Left 24kg x4 (5th was slow, 6 was too ugly to count) Right 24kg x6 (7th was slow)

Final Test:
Left 24kg x8 (9-11 were slow) Right 24kg x10 (11-13 were slow)

to read this"222.0 @ 25.47 h:w 0.97"
222.0 lbs @ 25.47% body fat with a hip:waist ratio of 0.97

The promise of body composition change in the article I feel was exaggerated. After the first full week we see no change in body composition. So I decided to use Fabio's "Hit the Target Meal Plan" dieting. I saw immediate desirable changes. I did skip one full day of training. This was because I was also prepping "impromptu" for a judo competition. I also slightly adjusted when I did my W4D1 from a Monday to a Tuesday to allow recovery from the competition... For numbers that were in parenthesis (4) or 1234(5), I always did the high number. If that meant more rest between sets, so be it. I almost didn't do the final tests. I got sick with a bad cold starting Monday night. Tuesday + Wednesday I was bed ridden for the most part. I feel like I could have gotten 1-2 more clean reps on both sides had I not been sick.

Edit:
besides the above I was doing my usual martial art classes 6 days per week. And as mentioned, one Judo competition as well.
Edit2:
Testing was done single arms, but the program was run with doubles.
 
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@cwheeler33,

Congrats on your success. Nice work!

Let me address this valid point you made:

The promise of body composition change in the article I feel was exaggerated. After the first full week we see no change in body composition.

From the "Dry Fighting Weight" article -
You can either use a single kettlebell or a pair of kettlebells. My preference is always a pair of kettlebells for the intermediate kettlebell user because of the greater systemic strength effect. That means there is more demand placed on the body to get stronger, so it does.

Hindsight being 20/20 (I wrote that article in late 2013/early 2014), I'd remove the part where I stated you can use a single kettlebell.

My preference is still always a pair of kettlebells, especially for you, since you've been using KBs for quite some time.

So, quite simply, the reason you felt that the promise of body composition change was exaggerated is because most likely you didn't challenge your Type 2 fibers - at least not for the lower body.

While 24kg may have been a challenge for your upper body, I doubt very much based upon your KB training and MA experience, along with your current bodyweight that it was demanding for your legs.

I encourage you to run the program again with a pair of KBs and see what you achieve as a result.

Hope this helps.
 
@cwheeler33,

Congrats on your success. Nice work!

Let me address this valid point you made:

Hindsight being 20/20 (I wrote that article in late 2013/early 2014), I'd remove the part where I stated you can use a single kettlebell.

My preference is still always a pair of kettlebells, especially for you, since you've been using KBs for quite some time.

So, quite simply, the reason you felt that the promise of body composition change was exaggerated is because most likely you didn't challenge your Type 2 fibers - at least not for the lower body.

While 24kg may have been a challenge for your upper body, I doubt very much based upon your KB training and MA experience, along with your current bodyweight that it was demanding for your legs.

I encourage you to run the program again with a pair of KBs and see what you achieve as a result.

Hope this helps.
sorry I didn't make it clear.
Testing was done as single arm presses. I wanted to know what my imbalances were.
But the program was run as doubles. Even then, I'd agree my legs and core are much stronger than my upper limbs. I bet once I start using 2x32's or more it'll truly start to torch excess bodyweight. I truly look forward to running this routine again in the future.

Thank you so much for putting it out there for us!
 
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A note about my use of Hit the Target Meal Plan. By the numbers my day looked like this (raw weight):
200g Chicken Breast
2x200g Extra Lean ground Beef
300g of White Fish
each of those portions would be eaten with some kind of salad or veges on the list. Spices are essential!

daily shake
90g of Protein powder: 2 scoops of whey and 1 scoop
1 cup broccoli, 2 cups spinach, 1 cup blueberries, 1 cup raspberries, 1 cup strawberries, 1 scoop creatine, 1 Tbsp Fish Oil, 2 Tbsp Olive Oil

Not counting 4L of water, I also had 2 nice large coffees per day. Besides my daily Vit/Min supplements... that's it.
That means Total Calories is about 2600 per day

special: on DFW days, I would consume 2 extra scoops of whey protein.

My jolly days is pretty much the same except I add/replace with stuff like baked potatoes, oatmeal, rice, enjoy a nice glass of red wine or some scotch... All things I enjoy...
 
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So, quite simply, the reason you felt that the promise of body composition change was exaggerated is because most likely you didn't challenge your Type 2 fibers - at least not for the lower body.

While 24kg may have been a challenge for your upper body, I doubt very much based upon your KB training and MA experience, along with your current bodyweight that it was demanding for your legs.
For those of us like @cwheeler33 who know our legs could be working a lot harder, would it be a good idea to use a heavier squat weight than press in the same program? Or a simpler program design change might be to add +1 or even +2 reps for squats relative to the 5rm press? Or even pistols, depending on weight selection?

It makes me wonder...is there an ideal squat RM to use during Dry Fighting Weight or similar timed C&P programs?
 
For those of us like @cwheeler33 who know our legs could be working a lot harder, would it be a good idea to use a heavier squat weight than press in the same program? Or a simpler program design change might be to add +1 or even +2 reps for squats relative to the 5rm press? Or even pistols, depending on weight selection?

It makes me wonder...is there an ideal squat RM to use during Dry Fighting Weight or similar timed C&P programs?
for what goal?
For my "additional" goal of body composition it is enough to know I have to address it mindfully but without extreme.
I can also say I'm OK with not changing the program, to let my body reserve the energy to build up the pressing power faster. Eventually my upper body will catch up as I focus on it. In fact it's one of the reasons I did this program. I neglected upper limb strength and had to address the imbalances.

Keep in mind some people have the reverse problem... Their legs are way too weak... I think DFW is a nice middle ground for either camp, especially when using double kettlebells.
 
For those of us like @cwheeler33 who know our legs could be working a lot harder, would it be a good idea to use a heavier squat weight than press in the same program? Or a simpler program design change might be to add +1 or even +2 reps for squats relative to the 5rm press? Or even pistols, depending on weight selection?

It makes me wonder...is there an ideal squat RM to use during Dry Fighting Weight or similar timed C&P programs?
Yes, you can use a 5RM for the DFSQ if you need to.

Or add a few reps to the DFSQ each set, but not to failure.

However, keep in mind, most "regular" guys don't have strong legs, aren't really interested in having super strong legs, and probably don't have a large selection of kettlebells. These are all things I consider when designing training programs.

Hope this helps.
 
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