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Old Forum Easy Strength LOSS

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Matt

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Over the past 8months say, I've been losing strength, which isn't funny.  Today I got quite annoyed so thought I would finally ask if anyone has some suggestions/ideas.

Basically, I was doing a pretty intense 2yr strength workout (5x5 Deadlifts, partial squats, bench, clean and press, rows, weighted chins, weighted dips, abs basically) and tripled my prev. 1rep max for deadlift so decided to try and straighten out my core-muscular imbalance/asymmetry.  Stopped all heavy lifting to let my muscles lose their tension so I could reset them so to speak.  I spent about 6months on chop and lifts, and took up kayaking, 1hr a day for 6 days a week.

After that not really working as expected, I wanted to get back into strength training, but loved kayaking, and also thought I could re-invent my program and finally!! introduce kettlebells.  Did that about 2months ago, along the lines of Easy Strength, with one day 5x5 deads, and weighted chins, then swings and goblets (only 20kg kbell, 10x10), single leg 24-32kg deadlift and weighted dips, another swings/goblet, and then a mix of all three (single leg deads, swings, goblets - with half the number of sets).  Kept up the kayaking 1hour a day 6 days a week.

My strength has consistently gotten worse doing this.  Recently I had 2 wks off to travel, and oddly lost weight/muscle which has made things a bit worse.  I have gotten back into it now, with the same program (weight stabilised), but my strength has stayed on holidays I think, and now I am confused.

Ttoday I couldn't do a 5x5 which I once did as a deload week previously.  Yet even pre-holiday, on Easy Strength my max volume capacity was about 70% of before and my 1rep max maybe 90% of my old.  This is maybe to be expected.  Yet my weighted chins is only 50% of before and a struggle.

Maybe my expectations are too high for Easy Strength.  I would expect that 1hour of kayaking and the kettlebell routine I now do is much less intensive than my old strength program?  That and Pavel's interesting suggestion in Beyond Building that according to Russian "folklore" you can't fatigue the lats (and for me kayaking, deadlifts and weighted chins are lat intensive).  Plus strength as something learned, a skill - to lose it is contrary to that philosophy (which I fully believe).

One thing I would question about the philosophy of Easy Strength is that in practice it is not that simple - if a sport (kayaking) fatigues a minor muscle say (tricep insertion or forearms - felt that today doing deads and chins), then that weak link will make any deadlift or weighted chin or strength lift weak regardless of the set-rep combo.  This is what I found today big time.  Had to worm up my last rep for my deadlift 150kg - felt like a  goose.

Anyway - I don't want to be negative about Easy Strength and apologise if I am coming across like that.  Just want to get strong again.  I guess understanding why I am losing strength can help understand how to get strong.   Thanks if anyone has ideas.

 
 
Hello!

I just want to say, that you didn't follow the ES lines. Easy Strength is Easy Strenght not a 5x5 especially in deadlift.

If you are cayaking 6 day a week,  try to do only 2 strength days. Only 2-3 big moves and no more than 10 reps. You have a 25 reps with deadlift(!). It is a huge difference.

Just keep it simple, and read carefully the book one more time. Pavel "10 rules" and Dan "Rules of Ten", even every night before sleep.
 
“If at first you don't succeed, try doing what Pavel and Dan told you the first time!” Been there, done that :)
 
This reminds of the time the Ben Lomand thrower told me: "You're Dan John? We do your strength program for throwers."

And that is?

"Bench, Inclines and Half Squats."

Hit my blog at danjohn.net and look up Even Easier Strength as template for what Pavel and I are talking about. You have to have those easy light days...where you still lift...to grasp the whole idea.
 
Firstly thanks for the replies, especially the polite suggestions from Lukas on what I might do instead to follow Easy Strength more closely.

Perhaps my expectations of strength are different (or it wasn't clear how my program is structured).

Which is therefore stronger - 4 days of a powerlifting based 5x5 with two moderate intensity (some sprints) 1hour bike rides, OR

ONE day of a 5x5 deadlift at say avg 80% vol, 70% intensity v before, some moderate kettlebell swings, light single-leg KBell deads, light goblets, and an hour of kayaking a day.

I would say my first routine I am much stronger (one rep max, volume and intensity at that volume) than the second - and having trained with a strongman when doing that I think he would definitely agree (so it's not just my opinion).

I'll check out the suggestions from Dan and others first before replying further.  Thanks again.
 
Just to be clear, I am only doing a 5x5 deads on Monday, then Tues swings, Wed the single leg, Thurs swings, Fri a mix.

I have the book Easy Strength, and from what I initially understood and after a quick re-read still understand, that a philosophy (if not THE philosophy) of the training is that you can as an athlete still train to keep your sport specific skills while be strong.  And with Easy Strength you can be stronger than other forms of training for your specific sport.  (The example I saw on re-reading talks as if the person is using Easy Strength for a pure strength maintenance program, not strength + an athletic component).

AND I would say that the example of a program given is more intensive than the one I have outlined above - 2x5 daily v my 5x5 on Monday.

So to restart the discussion perhaps from a different perspective - my aim/goal was to keep kayaking and also keep my max strength for deads and weighted chins.  I was aware that my max volume or volume and intensity may be less due to the kayaking.  Plus I was compromising with myself that I couldn't keep the same max strength for squats or bench or pressing or weighted situps etc but thought deads and chins THE pinnacle of strength (personal preference) so was happy if they stayed.  Therefore Easy Strength.

Granted I may have compressed my strength day into one day and not spread over 5, contrary to the programs guidelines, but philosophically I would claim I have gone even Easier than Easy Strength, or if not the same.  I will have to re-read the book in more detail to be sure of this.

Yet my original point still stands after all of this - that it is not as simple as Easy Strength seems to claim.  Kayaking fatigues small muscles (or maybe undertrained muscles?) like the forearms which means any deadlifting is going to be seriously compromised for example.  Just speaking from experience.  Now maybe after a year my body will have adjusted to both kayaking and heavier chins etc, but at the moment, like I said, I'm losing strength more easily than gaining strength, hence my frustration and initial post.

 
 
If it does not work after 1 year you are not doing things right. try <a title="Even Easier Strength" href="http://danjohn.net/2011/06/even-easier-strength-perform-better-notes/">Even Easier Strength</a>
 
Matt,

It is possible that going from no kayaking to 6 days a week of kayaking will require a much longer breakin period than you would have thought, thus leading to a decrease in strength.  After all, there are only so many goals one can have at a time.

That said, I'd encourage you to do the easy strength workout as it is written.  I've had three blocks of easy strength training and I always saw improvements on my lifts even while focusing on nordic skiing or cycling or training horses.  Many days I'd feel pretty darn bad, and then I'd just keep the weights light.  Other days I felt awesome and was amazed how easy certain lifts were.  I think the key to this workout is being consistent and listening to your body.  I guess that's two keys.
 
Actually, it's extremely simple, if you follow the book.  I would also suggest that kayaking an hour a day may not be conducive to maximal strength, so it becomes an issue of priorities.  I'm also surprised that you lost strength from 2 weeks vacation and it has not come back; that suggests to me there may be other issues.

Numbers will also bring some clarity here; when you say you tripled your deadlift 1rm in 2 years, are we talking going from 100 pounds to 300, from 300 to 900, or somewhere in between?  And what is your current deadlift?
 
Hi Jason,

Thanks for your reply - and thanks for not suggesting I could try even easier strength.  I feel I am doing a minimum at the moment.

In regards to numbers - I actually meant that for my 1 rep max I increased the reps to 3 (tripled) - but as well I have almost tripled the weight in two years (but coming from an absolutely lame starting weight so not a good statistic).  So pre-fiddling ie. when I was not kayaking or trying to sort out muscle imbalances, I lifted 400lbs for 3 reps, and that's at 77kg body weight (about 170lbs??).

Now I am not sure of a rep max for deadlifts - but it could be about 350lbs for a single (disregarding how I might feel this week).  Yet the volume and intensity are much much less.

I think like what you and Brian said it could take some time getting the kayaking and strength to be friends.  Yet it would be nice to get the weighted chins up to speed and my deadlift just simmering below a decent max, not falling behind.  I'm just trying to eliminate other issues like you may suspect.
 
The concept of "Easy Strength" is summed up in the blogpost. Did you read the link to Dan Johns page (or his comment in the thread) or did you discard it?

I can sum them up: If you keep doing the movements, and you are consistent with doing them... You end up being better at the movements! So you "practice" these movements often to get better at them.

Thats why someone famous stated: "The important thing is to show up and get the movements in." - From the blog

On being minimalist:
My routine is sport practice 8 sessions a week.
+ C&P Low reps (singles during the day atm) 2 days each week.
+ Swings (pretty high rep, 200-ish) 1 day each week.

Takes 2 weeks of dedicated training to get back into "PR"-numbers.
 
What other "big" lifts have you trained in the past?  Do you have a base level of strength in the squat and the press as you do in the deadlift?  When you were concentrating on weight training for the two years before your move to fixing "muscle asymmetries/imbalances", what sorts of programs did you run?  I mean, what was your guiding paradigm?  Did you run structured cycles and employ periodization concepts and vary your loading for example?

I ask because, and no offense intended, your fixation on weighted chins is a bit "specific".
 
Hi Joel,

Thanks for your summary - I did read Dan's comments, and checked out his blog and read some stuff there.  I then decided to check out his book I have for more detail.

Bill - Squat's never deep due to my muscle imbalance, yet I walked out heavy weights (like over 3 times body weight) and did a half squat off pins at 2.5 body weight at least.  Press: again (and bench) difficult due to posture/muscle imbalance, but had a bodyweight clean and press.  I cycled a 5 by 5, dropping it to some sets of 3 and maxed out 1 every 2 months say, only 4 week cycle, deload on the 4th, then changed to an 6-8 week, dep. on how I felt.  Varied load over that cycle.  Weighted Chins was just something I seemed strongest at oddly.
 
Hi SuperJoel,

 

Sorry I left off the "super" earlier.  Just wanted to add that I appreciate your post with your minimalist example and time frame for PR's.  You obviously speak from experience - what do you train 8 sessions a week if you don't mind me asking?  Sounds like it is some serious training.
 
I just thought I would add a quote from Easy Strength to give an idea of how I was thinking -

"Hence, doubles and triples rule when it comes to Easy Strength with zero mass gain. But if your sport does not punish muscle gain, don’t be afraid to train with fives more often. Regardless, go easy on the singles."

Now kayaking doesn't punish muscle gain so I went with 5's.  I know that Dan recommends 2x5, and triples are a good safe range.  Yet I was only doing one heavy day and thought that would not be too taxing.  If you look at Pavel's 40 day program, it is much more intensive, but that is maybe a strength program not to be incorporated with another activity (or a light one)?

 
 
"Squat’s never deep due to my muscle imbalance, yet I [...] did a half squat"

Uh-oh.

I have yet to see anyone who could not do a deep squat due to muscle imbalance. Usually it was because they'd never been coached properly. I suspect we have deeper problems here than a failure to follow the routine you're following.
 
I don't understand, are you competing in kayaking?

 

If strength is a priority then why not cut the kayaking volume for a while?

 

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/the_40day_program

 

3 times a week and 2 time kayaking makes it what? 13 weeks and one day to finish you 40days? Deadlifts, press of some sort, weighted chins, ab move and swings? Correctives inbetween big moves? Original strength/becoming bulletproof as warmup?

 

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/2_times_a_week_for_twice_the_gains&cr=

 

3 times a week kayaking 2 times lifting?

 

 
 
Hi Rickard,

Thanks for those links and you make some really good suggestions.  I am not a competitive kayaker, it's just something I am using for rehab and I love being out on the water.

 

I guess by analogy my situation might be like the following - imagine you can close #3 CoC gripper easy for 3 (or bend crazy nails like IronTamer on here), and your bench is nuts, like 2.5 bweight.  But you have a dodgy back and can't deadlift more than body weight.   After a while you bite the bullet and decide to take up open water swimming to fix your back.  For 6 days a week you hit the surf and love it.  As well you keep up some kettlebell mobility work (swings) but ditch the heavy bench and grip work.  After a while you miss getting under the bar for a bench, so try and re-introduce it, along with the gripper.  Knowing where you've come from (ie. prev. rep maxes etc) you think you can get by with one heavy day a week for strength and then keep the rehab work - yet your gripper just can't get back to where it was, at best CoC#1.5, and your bench is at best 1.5 bweight for a single.  Every time you relax your training, your bench and grip work seems to fall back.  Swimming and your back is steady, ok, but no miracle recovery, yet it might need more than 6months to get to normal.

Just an analogy, but anyway.

 
 
I still find it hard to believe that in summary and according to the advice given to me, that basically 1 set of 5 reps per week is the difference between me being strong or losing strength.

Why I say this - Currently I am doing a 5 by 5 deadlift day at less than 80% 1 Rep Max, and a 3 by 5 weighted pull at about 55-60% 1 Rep Max.  This once a week.

Then the four other days I do light kettlebell swings and goblets and SL DL.

Now guidelines for Easy Strength are for a higher weekly volume with more lifts, yet that aside, would do say 3 sets of max. 5 reps for deadlies on one day.  So taking my first set as a "good morning Mr Deadlift" I am basically doing 4 sets of 5.  The principle or recommendation I am given is that my extra sets on that particular day is a recipe for strength loss, yet if I did more sets on other days then all's well.

I'm just trying to understand if the advice being given is that specific.

 

Some quotes from Pavel from Easy Strength say what I've intuitively suggested earlier as to why it may seem that simple as Easy Strength suggests, especially if you're just nutting these things out yourself in the gym.

The coach must remember the heterochronicity of adaptation: Different components develop and detrain at different rates.

Just remember: Excessive endurance training, aerobic or anaerobic, can make the athlete weak, sluggish, and slow.

 

My simple rehab goal was to be as strong as possible with Deads and weighted chins, and to be able to get out on the water 6 days.
 
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