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Other/Mixed Eccentrics

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)

Ricky01

Level 6 Valued Member
After an interesting discussion on ISO's (which I love), I wondered about people's views on eccentric emphasised training?

I don't have a huge amount of experience of primarily using eccentrics and was just curious to the experiences of others.

Richard
 

Pavel.Kosenkov

Level 5 Valued Member
This is interesting. Eccentric is what makes the swing of any value at all. I wonder, what is the oppinion about this.
 

Kenny Croxdale

Level 7 Valued Member
I wondered about people's views on eccentric emphasised training?

A Facinating Look At Eccentrics

This is an interesting perspecctive on Eccentric as a means of increasing Maxiumum Strength, Hyperterophy, Power and Speed

Before jumping into it, let's examine...

Tri-Phasic Movements

Most movement are Tri-Phasic, composed of three parts...

1) Eccentric Movement

This is peformed in lowering the weight, the downward movement.

2) Isomtric Action

In a movement the Isometric Action is when the weight is stopped, momentarily paused prior to moving it back up.

3) Concentric Contration

This is the upward movement of the weight/resistance in a movement.

One of the keys to increasing Maximum Strength, Power and Speed is when each of these Strengths is optimally developed.

In other word, each of these Strength affect the other.

One of the most knowledgeable regarding the increasing each Tri-Phasic Strength is...

Carl Dietz

Dietz breaks each of the Tri-Phasic Strengths into Training Blocks.

I don't have a huge amount of experience of primarily using eccentrics and was just curious to the experiences of others.

Eccentric Training Knowledge

You're not alone. Many individuals have a limited knowledge of Eccentric Training.

With that in mind, let's examine some of the research on it an dispel some of the misinformation that continues to be perpetuated.

Fast Eccentric Bar Speed for Strength/Hypertrophy

1) Short-term high- vs. low-velocity isokinetic lengthening training results in greater hypertrophy of the elbow flexors in young men

https://www.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.1152/japplphysiol.01027.2004

..higher velocity (3.66 rad/s) isokinetic lengthening contractions are associated with greater muscular hypertrophy than slower (0.35 rad/s) velocity lengthening contractions.

Summary

a) Fast Eccentric


This means lower the bar in approximately 1-2 seconds.

Performing a Faster Eccentric magnifies the weight that is on the bar; Force = Mass X Accelration.

Thus, doing so increases workload on the muscles.

Also, the Fast Eccentric predomonately work the "Super Fast" Type IIb/x and Fast Type IIa Muscle Fiber; the Muscle Fiber responsible for Maximum Strength, Power and Speed.

b) Slow Eccentric

Performing a Slow Eccentric decreases the Eccentric Force comparative to a Fast Eccentric which magnifies the loading.

Also. performing a Slow Eccentric primarily place more of the workload on the Slow Type I Endurance Fiber rather then on the Fast Twich Strength Muscle Fiber; this is noted below.

2) Fiber type-specific changes after eccentric training | Chris Beardsley on Patreon

...when slow eccentric phases are used during normal strength training, this causes increased type I muscle fiber size, ...

Research shows the slow negatives do not elicit the most effective response.

3) Slow eccentrics for growth? - Dan Ogborn

a) "...greater following high rather than slow velocity eccentric actions (29)."

b) "...as far as strength was concerned, fast eccentric actions were superior."

c) "...growth of type IIa and IIx fibres was greater with fast eccentric actions."

4) Explosive Lifting for Muscle Growth
Robbie J.Durand

" At the end of the study, the group that trained with fast eccentric contractions had the greatest increase in muscle hypertrophy. Muscle hypertrophy of the type IIB fibers (i.e. type IIB fibers are fast twitch fibers) increased from 6% to 13% in subjects. The slow group did not experience any gain in muscle mass." Source: European Journal of Applied Physiology

5) Negatives: You're Doing Them Wrong
https://www.t-nation.com/training/ne...ing-them-wrong

a) ..."going slower will not improve the stimulatory affect of the eccentric. ...it won't recruit and stimulate more fast-twitch fibers."

b) "The Essential Points: Focus on heavy and controlled, not on moderate weights lowered slowly."

Ballistic Eccentric Training


Let's break this unique method down.

Ballistic meaning a body or object goes airborne.

Eccentic, as we know, is the lengthening of the muscle in a movement; the downward motion.

Example

Gymnast are great examles.

In performing many movement, their dismount invoves Sticking The Landing.

An exercise eample would be dropping off, let's say, a 36 Plyometeric and Sticking The Landing.

High Jumpers

This research demonstrated that Ballistic Depth Landing were the most effective at developing the Eccentric Strength (Law of Speficity) for Jumpers. Research found the best High Jumper and had greater Ballistic Eccentric Strength.

Ballistic Eccentric Strength allowed the High Jumper to transiton from the run up to the bar, stopping the horizontal movement (running) and then transfer that energy and momentum into going vertical over the bar.

Jay Schroeder's Altitude Drop Training

Shroeder's one of the most innovate Strength Coaches in the game.

Schroder employs Altitude Drop (Depth Landing) into training his athetes.

As per Schroeder, "You have to be able to absorb force before you an repel it".

Car Brakes and Agility

Think of Eccentric Strength as Car Brakes. Car Brakes enable you to slow down and change direction; this is Agility.

Agility (the ability to change direction quickly) in sports is vital.

One of the greatest example of this is...

Cooper Kupp

Kupp was awarded Most Valuable Player Award at the 2021 Superbowl.

Kupp has slow 40 at NFL Combine


Kupp has one of the slowest 40 yard dash times in the NFL.

The irony is that Kupp's ablity, as a receiver, to get open and make catches.

It had to do with...

Kupp's Agility

Kupp s agility allowed him to stop (Eccentric Strength) and change direction; get one or maybe two step ahead of his defender

Schroeders Altitude Drop Training

Below are two of Schroder's Altigude Drop Training Movements.

On a personal note, I emply both.

Advanced Altitude Drops


Bench Press Altitue Drop (50 scond mark)


Eccentric Training Recommendations

Based on my reseaerch and personal experince...

1) Heavy Eccentrics

a) Reseaserch shows that working up to around 120% of your 1 Repetition Concentric Max is optimal.

b) Start off an Eccentric Program with something that is around 60-80% of you Concentric Max.

As we know, Eccentric are the predominatel cause of DOMS, Delayed Onset of Muscle Soreness.

Thus, by slowly introducing Eccentrics into your program, there is less soreness and more progress.

This has to do with "The Repeated Bout Effect"; it allows your body to become acclimated; similar to taking a vaccine with a small dose of a virus. Your body respond to it and becoming stronger and more immune.

2) Ballistic Eccentrics (Depth Drops/Altitude Drops)

For someone interested in trying this, here are some recommendations.

a) Lower Body

Start low. In performing lower body Altitude Drops/Depth Landing using a low box. You can progressively increase the loading by dropping of the box while holding dumbbells

2) Bench Press Altititue Drops

Start low. Start with an Olympic Bar. You an progressively increase the load by incrementally adding a 2. 5 to the bar.

Force = Mass X Accelertion

Progressively increasing the loading of an Altitude Drop/Depth Landing needs be with small increments. That due to the magnifiction of the Impact Force.

As an example, walking produces Impact Force that is 1.5 of your body weight; running producing an Impact Force that is between 3 - 6 tome you body weight.

Also, as someone once said regarding Impact Force,

..."Jumping out of a 5 story building won't kill you. It the sudden stop that you need to worry about".
 
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3letterslong

Level 6 Valued Member
Jay Schroeder is a really interesting guy. I wish he wasn't so secretive with his methods.

His system has 3 stages:

1. Holding position (his famous extreme isometrics)
2. Absorbing force (depth drops, bar catches)
3. Generating force (force production through speed, force production through max effort)

What nobody talks about, but what Jay loves to talk about, is that his training method is all based on fine-tuning your nervous system to be maximally present, engaged and powerful.

Here's a good video on it:

 

Pavel.Kosenkov

Level 5 Valued Member
Yeah, nice videos. When I was training wrestlig as a child - we did something like this:
Squat down, jump up, touch the shoulder with the knees mid air, and drop back down into squat. Hands behind the back, a descending ladder of 10.
 

Kenny Croxdale

Level 7 Valued Member
Eccentric is what makes the swing of any value at all. I wonder, what is the oppinion about this.
Eliciting The Stretch Reflex

An Eccentric Action performed with the right loading in a movement elicits the Strength Reflex. It amount to stretching a rubber band and then letting it go. It pops back with more force.

Research shows that up to 18% greater Force Production can be achieved in certain movement with the Stretch Reflex.

Depth Jumps

This method elicits essentially the same reponse as the Eccentric Component of the Kettlebell Swing,

Dropping off a box of the right height, evokes the Stretch Reflex; which produces greater Power Output.

Traditional Strength Trainng Movements

The Stretch Reflex is elicited with Traditional Strength Training Exercises.

As Dr Tom McLaughlin's (Exercise Biomechanics) determine in...

The last word on squats​

Men's Fitness, Sept, 1998 by Jeff O'Connell

McLaughlin isn't surprised; all the great squatters he's observed favor the slow, controlled descent used by Ray and Karwoski. "You want to lower the weight slowly, even during the first six inches of the descent," says McLaughlin. "Too many lifters start the squat very quickly and think they'll slow down halfway, but the momentum of the bar increases very quickly, and they end up effectively lifting more than the actual weight. The top lifters have velocity and acceleration patterns that are uniquely geared this way compared to beginners and intermediates."

An overlooked aspect of the squat is the transition between descent and ascent.
"You don't want to bounce, but you don't want to stop, either," says McLaughlin. "You want a slight recoil - enough that the change in direction utilizes some of the energy transfer in your body."
As for the ascent, all three men use the same word to describe it: explosion. Where you avoided momentum on the way down, use it to your advantage on the way up. An explosive drive will provide enough impetus to help you finish the move.

McLaughin On Heavy Bench Press Training

McLaughlin determine that lowering the bar slowly in a Heavy Bench Press needs to be maintaned to a point; more on that in a second.

Force = Mass X Acceleration

McLaughlin's determined that...

1) Novice Lifters

An example of a Novice Lifter who allowed the Eccentric Bar Speed to accelerate too fast would magnified the bar weight beyond its true load.

300 lb Bench Press Example

The Eccentrric Bar Speed of allowing there bar to drop too quickly wtih a Novice Lifter would magnified at 300 lb Bench Press 149% to 447 lbs.

2) Elite Lifters

The example of Elite Lifter who lowered the bar slowly, in approximately 1-2 seconds, only magnifiy a 300 lb Bench Press 112% to 336 lbs.

With that in said, McLaughlin determine how to...

Eliticing The Strech Reflex In Squat and The Bench Press

In approximately the last two inches in Squatting to Parallel or allowing the bar to touch the chest in a Bench Press, allow the Eccentric Bar Speed to increase. The increase in Eccentric Bar Speed evoked the Strech Reflex with the right amount of loading that allowing a lifter to drive more weight up.

The same principle in the Squat applies to the Bench Press. As per McLaughlin...

"You want a slight recoil - enough that the change in direction utilizes some of the energy transfer in your body."
 
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Ricky01

Level 6 Valued Member
Seems like a case can be made for both slow eccentrics - to keep a true load going through joints, whether body weight or external loading.
Or fast eccentrics to actually bring about a perceived increase in loading through the joints ala altitude drops.

I saw this posted by Schroeder a while back:
Perform a normal paced eccentric, followed by a 3-10 second hold whilst muscle is loaded lengthened, then a fast concentric.
3 sets of 3 reps for:
Pushups/bench
Long lunge
Row
Curl

Use Monday, Tuesday, Friday, Saturday

I suppose moves such as the pushup/bench could be a slow eccentric or at a different training cycle, a faster more explosive drop type movement


I have also seen it used (though have never tried) on a near daily basis utilising the fast drops idea for 1 set of 4 reps but using various light DB raises as well .... eg drop eccentric - catch at bottom - hold for 5 seconds - explode back to start.

I think this option was to build nervous sytem familiarity ala grease the groove, but with loading, movements that carried less risk.

Richard
 
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North Coast Miller

Level 8 Valued Member
I don't think I have his 'recovery' abilities haha.
He was a specimen to be sure, but the thing that strikes me is that after (and even during) Jones time nobody really made a serious effort to make overload eccentric hardware accessible to the masses. Its not the easiest thing to do with improvised means.
 

Ricky01

Level 6 Valued Member
You don't here much about it. I think Ellington Darden favoured eccentric focused work but I never tried any of it.

Richard
 

watchnerd

Level 8 Valued Member
After an interesting discussion on ISO's (which I love), I wondered about people's views on eccentric emphasised training?

I don't have a huge amount of experience of primarily using eccentrics and was just curious to the experiences of others.

Richard

I mentally put them in the same camp with stretch-mediated hypertrophy (although not all stretch mediated hypertrophy is eccentric, and vice versa), which has been shown to have additional hypertrophic stimulus.

I use the methodology when I can, either in exercise preference selection (e.g. Pelican curls, RDLs) or in the form of slow negatives (e.g. after overhead pressing), when it fits in with other programming goals.
 
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Kenny Croxdale

Level 7 Valued Member
a case ,,,for slow eccentrics
Time Under Tension

Slow Eccentrics would place the muscles under tension for a longer time period, with the right number of Repetitions.

The tension on the muscle would elicit...

Metabolic Stress

Research by Dr Brad Schoenfeld determine that this is one of the three mechanisms necessary for optimizing Hypertrophy.

Venous Blood Flow Restriction

When constant tension is maintained on the muscles, it restricts Venous Blood Flow back to the heart.

Blood is trapped in the muscle. The muscles Balloon Up with blood, aka The Pump. This trigger a downstream anabolic effect.

This is the underlying reason that Occlusion Train works.

Thus, is part of the reason that Slow Eccentrics for multiple repetition would be effective for Hypertrophy.

fast eccentrics to actually bring about a perceived increase in loading...ala altitude drops.

Dramatic Loading with Altitude Drops

It more about the reality that Altitude Drops produce rather than the perception; something you can feel.

Teoriya I Praktika Fizcheskoi Kultury, 10:62-64, 1978
L.I. Dursenev, L.G. Raevsky
Soviet Sports Review/1979/Yessis

The Soviet Sport Review research determined that dropping off a platform that was "2 meters and up" produced Impact Forces that were approximately 20 times their bodyweight. That Impact Force is something you feel.

I suppose moves such as the pushup/bench could be a slow eccentric or at a different training cycle, a faster more explosive drop type movement

Stretch Reflex

This isn't effective in training nor developing the Stretch Reflex.

1) Slow Eccentrics

This isn't going to elicit, deveope the Stretch Reflex.

b) Fast Eccentric

A Fast Eccentric with the right load, follow by an Explosive Ballistic Concentric, optimizes the development of the Stretch Reflex.

eg drop eccentric - catch at bottom - hold for 5 seconds - explode back to start.

Training Effect

Catching and holding the load for 5 seconds increase the Isometric Action in the movement.

Research show that pausing any movement for 4 seconds negates the Stretch Reflex.

Performing a movement with a 5 second hold and then projecting an object into the air is references as, an Isometric Ballistic Movement; The Fundamentals of Special Strength, Verkhoshansky.
 

Kenny Croxdale

Level 7 Valued Member
He was a specimen to be sure, but the thing that strikes me is that after (and even during) Jones time nobody really made a serious effort to make overload eccentric hardware accessible to the masses. Its not the easiest thing to do with improvised means.
Accentuated Eccentric Training

This approach enables individuals to perform Eccentric Movement.

Examples

1) Dumbbell Overhead Press, Bench Press, etc.


Push one Dumbbell up with both hands/arms, lower it with one arm.

2) Pistol Squat

Squat down with one leg with a Dumbbell.

Then stand back up to the Squat Position with both legs.

If you strong enough, hold a Dumbbell in one hand

3) Bulgarian Split Squat

Same application for it as with a Pistol Squat.

3) Dumbbell Curl

Curl the Dumbbell up with both hands/arms, lower it with one arm.
 

cccp21

Level 3 Valued Member
Jay Schroeder is a really interesting guy. I wish he wasn't so secretive with his methods.

His system has 3 stages:

1. Holding position (his famous extreme isometrics)
2. Absorbing force (depth drops, bar catches)
3. Generating force (force production through speed, force production through max effort)

What nobody talks about, but what Jay loves to talk about, is that his training method is all based on fine-tuning your nervous system to be maximally present, engaged and powerful.

Here's a good video on it:

By the way I (Brandon Green) was the subject of that video. This was before Jay's present system (stages1,2,3 listed above) wherein we were practicing "compensatory acceleration" (sort of like Fred Hatfield's ideas). For "lack of resistance" on the bar one should "compensate" by "accelerating" the load. After a while this "neurological reflex" will carry over to all loads lifted. Including the "maximum effort" ones!
 

3letterslong

Level 6 Valued Member
By the way I (Brandon Green) was the subject of that video. This was before Jay's present system (stages1,2,3 listed above) wherein we were practicing "compensatory acceleration" (sort of like Fred Hatfield's ideas). For "lack of resistance" on the bar one should "compensate" by "accelerating" the load. After a while this "neurological reflex" will carry over to all loads lifted. Including the "maximum effort" ones!
Whoa, I had no idea you posted here! You probably know more about this crazy stuff than the rest of us! I'll keep my eyes peeled for your posts in the future.
 

Kenny Croxdale

Level 7 Valued Member
"compensatory acceleration" (sort of like Fred Hatfield's ideas).
Dr Fred Hatfield

Let's clarify that to Compensatory Acceleration is Hatfield's Protocol rather than sort of

For "lack of resistance" on the bar one should "compensate" by "accelerating" the load.

Acceleration Of The Load

Let's break this down.

Compensatory Acceleration means that regardless of how light or heavy the load is, the objective is to push or pull it as hard and fast as possible.

The Problem With Light Loads

If the load is too light in performing Compensatory Acceleration, a greater portion of the movement is devoted to learning to deceleration; slowing it down.

Research Data
Source: Plyometric Bench Press Training for More Strength and Power

1) The National Strength and Conditioning Association's Basic Guidelines for the Resistance Training of Athletes states that "performing speed repetitions as fast as possible with light weights (e.g., 30-45% of 1RM) in exercises in which the bar is held on to and must be decelerated at the end of the joint's range of motion...in exercises in which the bar is held on to and must be decelerated at the end of the joint's range of motion (e.g., bench press) to protect the joint does not produce power or speed training but rather teaches the body how to decelerate, or slow down.

2) "Research has shown as much as 75% of a movement can be devoted to slowing the bar down." (Flannagan, 2001). Elliot et al. (1989) revealed that during 1-RM bench presses, the bar decelerates for the final 24 % of the range of motion. At 81% of 1-RM, the bar deceleration occurs during the final 52% of the range of motion.

Resloving The Light Load Issue

To ensure that Compensatory Accleration elicits Power and Speed throughout the Full Range of a Movement one of two method need to be employed...

1) It Must Be Balllistic

Ballistic meaning an object or the body must go airborne in The Movement.

a) Bench Press Example

In Bench Press that means the bar must be launched into the air. For those new or concerned with this method, the Smith Machine with the safety tier up is effective.

Bench Press Throw, Dr Jim Stoppani



b) Squat Example

The same is true with the Squat.

In the Concentric Part of the Squat, the bar needs to be pushed as hard and fast as possible.

With Light Loads a lifter will go airborne.

With Moderate Load a lifter's feet will slightly come off the floor.

With a Heavy Load the "Intent" is it drive the weight up so hard and fast the you jump with the weight. That isn't going to happen.

However, research (McBride) determined the "Intent" to perform a Jump Squat with a heavy load evoked a greater percentage of Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber; developing them.

2) Accommonddating Ressietance

Attaching Chains and/or Bands to an Ascending Strength Curve Movement enables lifter to perform Compensatory Acceleration through the Full Range of the Movement; which develop Power if the right Training Percentage is used.

Band Squats



Dr Dr Gideon B Ariel's Reserach

Ariel determined that in all exercises, only One Third of the Movement is Overloaded where the muscle are trained and developed.
Accommodation Resistance with Ascending Strenght Curve Movements enable lifters to maximally train and develop muscle through a greater range of the Movement.

Ascending Strength Curve

Ascending Strength Curve Movement are those which are hard in the bottom position and get easier the high the weight is lifed.

Examples: Squats, Presses (Bench Press, Shoulder Press, Dips), Deadlifts, etc.
 
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GreenSoup

Level 6 Valued Member
@Kenny Croxdale I always appreciate the incredible detail you put into these posts. You should go back over what you've written on the board, put them together by category and sell them as a book.

Even if your only marketing is a link in your ongoing time at the forum your info is far more deserving of attention than some bestsellers I'd read.
 

Denys Carthusian

Level 1 Valued Member
In university I experimented with eccentric only weighted calf raises on a Nautilus stocked facility I frequented based on Ellington Darden's endorsement. The DOMS was so severe I missed a day of work because I had to crawl to the bathroom and was unable to walk upright for at least 24 hours.
 

cccp21

Level 3 Valued Member
Dr Fred Hatfield

Let's clarify that to Compensatory Acceleration is Hatfield's Protocol rather than sort of



Acceleration Of The Load

Let's break this down.

Compensatory Acceleration means that regardless of how light or heavy the load is, the objective is to push or pull it as hard and fast as possible.

The Problem With Light Loads

If the load is too light in performing Compensatory Acceleration, a greater portion of the movement is devoted to learning to deceleration; slowing it down.

Research Data
Source: Plyometric Bench Press Training for More Strength and Power

1) The National Strength and Conditioning Association's Basic Guidelines for the Resistance Training of Athletes states that "performing speed repetitions as fast as possible with light weights (e.g., 30-45% of 1RM) in exercises in which the bar is held on to and must be decelerated at the end of the joint's range of motion...in exercises in which the bar is held on to and must be decelerated at the end of the joint's range of motion (e.g., bench press) to protect the joint does not produce power or speed training but rather teaches the body how to decelerate, or slow down.

2) "Research has shown as much as 75% of a movement can be devoted to slowing the bar down." (Flannagan, 2001). Elliot et al. (1989) revealed that during 1-RM bench presses, the bar decelerates for the final 24 % of the range of motion. At 81% of 1-RM, the bar deceleration occurs during the final 52% of the range of motion.

Resloving The Light Load Issue

To ensure that Compensatory Accleration elicits Power and Speed throughout the Full Range of a Movement one of two method need to be employed...

1) It Must Be Balllistic

Ballistic meaning an object or the body must go airborne in The Movement.

a) Bench Press Example

In Bench Press that means the bar must be launched into the air. For those new or concerned with this method, the Smith Machine with the safety tier up is effective.

Bench Press Throw, Dr Jim Stoppani



b) Squat Example

The same is true with the Squat.

In the Concentric Part of the Squat, the bar needs to be pushed as hard and fast as possible.

With Light Loads a lifter will go airborne.

With Moderate Load a lifter's feet will slightly come off the floor.

With a Heavy Load the "Intent" is it drive the weight up so hard and fast the you jump with the weight. That isn't going to happen.

However, research (McBride) determined the "Intent" to perform a Jump Squat with a heavy load evoked a greater percentage of Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber; developing them.

2) Accommonddating Ressietance

Attaching Chains and/or Bands to an Ascending Strength Curve Movement enables lifter to perform Compensatory Acceleration through the Full Range of the Movement; which develop Power if the right Training Percentage is used.

Band Squats



Dr Dr Gideon B Ariel's Reserach

Ariel determined that in all exercises, only One Third of the Movement is Overloaded where the muscle are trained and developed.
Accommodation Resistance with Ascending Strenght Curve Movements enable lifters to maximally train and develop muscle through a greater range of the Movement.

Ascending Strength Curve

Ascending Strength Curve Movement are those which are hard in the bottom position and get easier the high the weight is lifed.

Examples: Squats, Presses (Bench Press, Shoulder Press, Dips), Deadlifts, etc.
What about the use of "Successive Induction"? On another point please tell me, anyone, about what they think of this sort of "periodization"- Strength training using the "repeat effort method "according to Pavel's recommendations as well as the "dynamic effort method" according to the way the Chinese Olympic Weightlifting system uses it in combination with "developing an aerobic base" as Suvorov might have prescribed it in a sort of "A+A" for 6-8 weeks FOLLOWED BY-Using the "Schroeder System" starting with the "Iso-Extremes". In other words-Developing an aerobic and strength(mostly neurological) base before any introduction of "lactate"!
 
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