Kettlebell Elbow Pain Body Mechanics with the Double Clean

[Andi-in-BKK]

Hey guys,

I’ve been working on Kettlebell STRONG! for a while, specifically the double clean and press. I tried to use the “A” kettlebell handle position as shown in the instructional.

Recently, I had a StrongFirst instructor review my form on the double clean. Among a few corrections, he suggested that I switch to a “V” handle position. I tried it on a pair of lighter bells to get a feel for it and with the other corrections, my cleans were looking nice as pretty and very smooth. (Up to my pair of 24kg bells - a 10RM bell for me)

The trouble came with a week of higher volume double clean practice, I started to have some elbow pain (outside elbow). Around the same time I started doing pull-ups as well (finally got my bar and rings set up at the house). I haven’t been using my heavier pair of bells (28kg, a 4-5RM pair) as I want to get things dialed before pushing on.

The trouble appears to come from pronating my wrists/hands, as when I do chin-ups or reverse my handle position to thumbs forward, the pain is much less severe.

My biggest issue is the cleans are a bit harder to pull off with the thumbs forward grip (they still end up in rack and with other cues it’s not terrible, just not as pretty and smooth as with thumbs back)

Has anyone else experienced this? What’s the recommended course of action? Stick with the “V” and smooth cleans, or use the “A” , accept less than perfect cleans while continuing on my program with less pain? I’m already decreasing chin-up volume to allow more recovery.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Brett Jones]

Video of the two type of handle position cleans?

Try being "neutral" on the handle position.

You did run into a high volume week and add pullups to the mix so it could be "simple" overload.

 

[Andi-in-BKK]

Video of the two type of handle position cleans?

Try being "neutral" on the handle position.

You did run into a high volume week and add pullups to the mix so it could be "simple" overload.

I’ve thought about it being a volume issue, I dropped down considerably in weight (14/18) but I was still doing 50-75 reps of cleans per day all week in addition to the pull-ups where I was previously only doing one clean before a set of pressing, so 10 reps max(28 pair). I took the weekend off entirely to see if that helps, but I’m very bad at not working out, like pass the pull-up bar and I can’t help but knock a few out.

When you say “neutral” handle position, are you talking like a “barbell” style flat grip? I got the idea to switch to the “A” or “Reverse V” after watching Neupert discuss it in Kettlebell STRONG! I didn’t have any elbow pain while performing them that way, but again it could be a volume thing, and my form did get some adjustments over the past two weeks.

Too share a video, would I just go “Attach Files” when I share a post or is hyperlink to a host a better? I’ll try to get some videos with both handle positions tomorrow for reference.

 

[Ryan T]

Hey guys,

I’ve been working on Kettlebell STRONG! for a while, specifically the double clean and press. I tried to use the “A” kettlebell handle position as shown in the instructional.

Recently, I had a StrongFirst instructor review my form on the double clean. Among a few corrections, he suggested that I switch to a “V” handle position. I tried it on a pair of lighter bells to get a feel for it and with the other corrections, my cleans were looking nice as pretty and very smooth. (Up to my pair of 24kg bells - a 10RM bell for me)

The trouble came with a week of higher volume double clean practice, I started to have some elbow pain (outside elbow). Around the same time I started doing pull-ups as well (finally got my bar and rings set up at the house). I haven’t been using my heavier pair of bells (28kg, a 4-5RM pair) as I want to get things dialed before pushing on.

The trouble appears to come from pronating my wrists/hands, as when I do chin-ups or reverse my handle position to thumbs forward, the pain is much less severe.

My biggest issue is the cleans are a bit harder to pull off with the thumbs forward grip (they still end up in rack and with other cues it’s not terrible, just not as pretty and smooth as with thumbs back)

Has anyone else experienced this? What’s the recommended course of action? Stick with the “V” and smooth cleans, or use the “A” , accept less than perfect cleans while continuing on my program with less pain? I’m already decreasing chin-up volume to allow more recovery.

Thanks for the help!

Agree with @Brett Jones. Also take a look at this video by Hec. Pay attention to both his hand placement and angle of kettlebells but also keeping a vertical vs horizontal trajectory for the path of the kettlebells. A lot of folks miss this for the drop, and if you’re casting out and muscling the KB into the rack it could be problematic for your elbows as well.

How to clean up your kettlebell clean

The kettlebell clean was one of the skills that never came comfortable to me. It literally took me years to get it right.To be honest, I'm not even sure when...

strongashec.com

Going forward, here’s what I’d suggest.

1. If your primary focus is C+P, then cut the volume on the pull ups or cut them out completely for a bit. You may be hitting the connective tissue with more than what it’s ready to take.
2. Technique will become better with practice.
3. Use some finger extensor exercise either between sets or later in the day. Doesn’t have to be super structured. Pavel recommends this in S&S too.
4. You can get a Theraband FlexBar and do recommended exercises per the video, either between sets or as a group later in the day.

Points 1 and 2 will help the elbows cool off. Points 3 and 4 will be beneficial to remodel the tissue, and will help prevent future flare ups with use.

 

[LarryB]

This happened to me as well and i found some holes in my cleans, but the real issue was bad pull up form.

 

[Andi-in-BKK]

Agree with @Brett Jones. Also take a look at this video by Hec. Pay attention to both his hand placement and angle of kettlebells but also keeping a vertical vs horizontal trajectory for the path of the kettlebells. A lot of folks miss this for the drop, and if you’re casting out and muscling the KB into the rack it could be problematic for your elbows as well.

How to clean up your kettlebell clean

The kettlebell clean was one of the skills that never came comfortable to me. It literally took me years to get it right.To be honest, I'm not even sure when...

strongashec.com

Going forward, here’s what I’d suggest.

1. If your primary focus is C+P, then cut the volume on the pull ups or cut them out completely for a bit. You may be hitting the connective tissue with more than what it’s ready to take.
2. Technique will become better with practice.
3. Use some finger extensor exercise either between sets or later in the day. Doesn’t have to be super structured. Pavel recommends this in S&S too.
4. You can get a Theraband FlexBar and do recommended exercises per the video, either between sets or as a group later in the day.

Points 1 and 2 will help the elbows cool off. Points 3 and 4 will be beneficial to remodel the tissue, and will help prevent future flare ups with use.

Bell flight path was one of the things I got nailed on with my private. But I didn’t think about the down stroke of the clean. I’ll watch that in my videos with today’s workout.

I’ve pretty much decided to give the high volume cleaning and pull-ups a rest and just work through phase one of KB Strong from the beginning. So lots of singles with rest in between, as sort of a de-load.

I’m not sure if I can find a FlexBar here in Thailand, I may have to find an analog. But I’m looking for a produce rubber band to practice finger extension with as recommended in S&S.

Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[Andi-in-BKK]

This happened to me as well and i found some holes in my cleans, but the real issue was bad pull up form.

Oh no doubt, I’m currently geeking out over body mechanics and realizing just how many common movements I’ve been doing without having the best form.

I noticed it wasn’t as severe when I switched to palms facing toward me (supinated), which I’m assuming because I’m able to pull with my lats easier as I focus on pulling my elbows into my ribs (easier than I can with pull-ups-pronated hand) and there’s not as much load on my biceps and elbows.

 

[Andi-in-BKK]

Having trouble adding photos from my phone, but I can screen capture different phases of the lift if you can tell me what points you are looking for.

This is my preferred starting position, and just to confirm, I checked it with my thumbs back in the “V” handle position and immediately could feel the tension in my elbow and forearm after a single clean.

 

[Andi-in-BKK]

I think I found a problem in my clean that’s causing a chunk of the issue. My hips and knees were going forward in the hike which I’m guessing I was leaking power and causing me to have to muscle up on the bell with my arms to get it moving upwards.

I’m guessing this, in high volume last week, along with the pull-ups added last week contributed.

I added two snap shots of the back of my hike before and after fixing that specific issue.

 

[Brett Jones]

I actually prefer the hinge position from the first pic above.

Look forward to the video of the cleans

 

[Andi-in-BKK]

I actually prefer the hinge position from the first pic above.

Look forward to the video of the cleans

Even with my knees shooting forward in the hike? That was one of the things that my coach nailed me on was dropping my hips and letting my knees shoot forward. I just assumed I was able to generate more force with the loaded hamstrings of the second picture (mid hike) and that’s why everything felt smoother, especially when coupled with the deliberate mid-pull at the hips.

I’m still trying to get the knack for posting a video, attach files isn’t displaying videos on my device.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

You can simply upload the vid to YouTube or Vimeo then share the link here

 

[Andi-in-BKK]

You can simply upload the vid to YouTube or Vimeo then share the link here

Thanks, I’ll give it a go

 

[Andi-in-BKK]

24kg double clean- hike practice

youtube.com

Camera angle is crap, but here is a video from today practicing the hike and mid pull for the clean with double 24kg bells.

 

[Andi-in-BKK]

I realize my elbows are coming away from my ribs in this video, it was mid way through my practice today and I specifically was focusing on getting the hike and knees forward issues fixed.

 

[Steve W.]

Even with my knees shooting forward in the hike? That was one of the things that my coach nailed me on was dropping my hips and letting my knees shoot forward. I just assumed I was able to generate more force with the loaded hamstrings of the second picture (mid hike) and that’s why everything felt smoother, especially when coupled with the deliberate mid-pull at the hips.

I'd have to see a video of your clean to put those pictures in context, but a few observations:
--In general, heavy doubles will have a shorter more vertical stroke with more forward knee movement.
--In the first pic, your hips are further back and your head and upper back are in better position. With heavy doubles, I focus on sitting back and keeping my eyes, head and chest up. Not necessarily in an exaggerated way, but I do find that looking down, dropping the head, and rounding the upper back are bad news both for power and for my low back, so cuing to keep them up helps avoid that.
--Keeping your legs very straight and folding forward is going to get your center of mass too far forward and put a lot of strain on your low back. Think "sit back," not "fold forward" (as in the second pic). Sitting back requires the knees to bend and hips to drop somewhat. This is not a bad thing and lets you get more quads and glutes into the movement, as well as allowing you to maintain better balance.
--"Loading the hamstrings" does not mean assuming the position that stretches your hamstrings the most. Of course straighter legs stretch the hamstrings more, but (besides causing balance issues) it doesn't put you in position to generate more force. Loading the hamstrings means using the hamstrings to absorb the force of the bell on the downswing and to generate force on the upswing, not stretching them closer to the limit of your flexibility.
--Dropping the hips and "shooting" the knees forward is only a problem if the movement is exaggerated and done in anticipation of the force of the bell instead of being used to absorb the force of the bell.
--I am not sure what "deliberate mid-pull" means. I try to drive the bells to float, keeping my arms straight and locked down as long as possible as my hips and knees extend. Then, while the bells are floating, I quickly get my arms under them while they are unloaded so I can catch them in the rack. I try to avoid any sort of pulling on the bell and just think about quickly getting my hands underneath them. When I find my cleans lacking power, one of my cues is "Arms Down!" to remind me NOT to pull with the arms, but let the hip drive do the work. "When the arm bends, the power ends."

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Ok looks like we have some more context and work to do..

Let's fix your drive and midpull first..

 

[Steve W.]

24kg double clean- hike practice

youtube.com

Camera angle is crap, but here is a video from today practicing the hike and mid pull for the clean with double 24kg bells.

I realize my elbows are coming away from my ribs in this video, it was mid way through my practice today and I specifically was focusing on getting the hike and knees forward issues fixed.

Yes, you are swinging the bells way out in front, which then requires pulling them back into the rack.

You also are lifting your hips way up (and straightening your legs) on the hike, then rebending the knees and dropping the hips on the upswing. In hard style, you want a straight rhythm of bending the hips and knees on the hike and extending them on the upswing. In other words, it's okay for your knees to bend and come forward and for your hips to drop on the hike, but not on the upswing. I don't know exactly where in the movement the still pics above were taken, so the video gives better context.

A set with reps dropped from the rack into the hike would be good for troubleshooting too. The drop sets up the drive, and I find that hiking the bells off the floor is usually the worst rep of any set since the bells have to start out so low and out in front. Whereas when you drop from the rack, you are keeping the bells in close to your body and keeping your hands higher than your knees into the hike.

 

[Brett Jones]

Couple of things:
The Perfect Kettlebell Swing: Is There Such a Thing? | StrongFirst

The hinge described in the article applies to double bell work and cleans as well.

 

[Andi-in-BKK]

Thanks guys! I’ve been chasing this whole knee movement thing so much so that I didn’t focus on the mid pull and form suffered. I’ll drill with some lighter bells and post a video with corrected issues mentioned so far.