Question Every Minute on the Minute

Michael Scott

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I keep seeing on here where EMOM or OTM is being used as the standard for swings. I remember seeing someone state that in S&S Pavel recommends or states that EMOM/OTM is the timing for swings. I read through the 2HS & the 1HS sections in my digital version, and I do not find a statement like this in there.

Can someone please point me in the right direction? I get the bad feeling that I am missing something in this book.
 

Jan

More than 500 posts
If you are doing S&S by the book, you do not follow the EMOM / OTM protocol, but use your breath or a heart rate monitor as your gauge. So I do not think you are missing something.
 

Steve Freides

Forum Administrator
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
@Michael Scott, my understanding is that the 3-4:1 ratio of rest to work is, if you're picking numbers, a pretty good place to start for the kind of effort we're looking for in S&S. If listening to your body isn't your strong suit, maybe it's a good way to start, and it's also fine, IMHO, for people who do better with a structure like that. IOW, you don't have to do it, but it's not awful and it can be useful.

-S-
 

Oscar

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Hi Michael, I dont think the book talks about time. As mentioned by @Steve Freides and @Jan above, the book talks about going by feel and using the talk test as far as I recall.

On another thread where HR monitoring was being discussed I remember Al Ciampa recommending @Tobias Wissmueller to do the swings OTM until reaching simple. Until that goal is reached, dont overthink it and do it OTM. Then, after simple, it is worth making it more complex and using a HR monitor. I´ll try to find it and share it here.

I personally do them on the 1:20, since I prefer to be more fresh to improve on technique. Every now and then I do them OTM also. If i´m not mistaken, for most of us the 10 swings take about 17 secs. Therefore, a doing them on 1:08 / 1:25 would give a rest to work ratio of 3-4 / 1. OTM is quite close to that.
 

Oscar

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
@Oscar I was doing my swings OTM, and then changed it to every 75 seconds and felt my form get a lot crisper in later sets.
I'm doing them every 80 secs and have found the same thing. At this stage I am not too worried about losing some conditioning by taking more time (if it's even the case). I am more worried about good technique and good recovery. But I think as my technique gets more automatic and I improve, I might want to slowly compress time until I eventually move to a heavier bell.

@jca17 that's exactly the post I was talking about, thanks for finding it
 

jca17

More than 300 posts
I'm going to finish up some barbell cycles around the start of September and want to jump back into S&S, and I think instead of starting at the top of each minute, I want a full minute of rest. That will be about 75-80 seconds per round, so we're all kind of thinking along the same lines.

While the book doesn't talk about specific rest times like otm or anything, it does mention timing your rest based on a number of breaths. Half the number of breaths as reps. So for S&S, you would take five deep nasal breaths between sets. I think this would come out to be about the same: about 45 to 60 seconds rest, but it forces you to really focus on economy of breathing and training your lungs to maximize with each breath to recover, plus it just feels more "natural" then using a timer. Either way, I remember when I was using a heart rate monitor with S&S, I learned that the session was as much about learning to recover as it was about learning to exert. It changed the focus and I really enjoyed the presence of breathing, like the swings were just the stimulus to allow me to focus on breath and relaxation. Since I already really enjoy the presence and focus of swings, its just win-win when you also enjoy the mindfulness of the recovery.
 

HUNTER1313

More than 500 posts
I asked this in another thread and realized that this would be a better place. Swings on the minute, but what is the guideline on the TGU'S? I need to keep total training time down, but realize the need for optimization of the program.
 
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Steve Freides

Forum Administrator
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
@HUNTER1313, I have no idea what "the need for optimization of the protein" is, but just wait until you're ready to do another rep in good form, however long or short a period of time that may be.

-S-
 

LejonBrames

Triple-Digit Post Count
While the book doesn't talk about specific rest times like otm or anything, it does mention timing your rest based on a number of breaths. Half the number of breaths as reps.
Do you know where in the book he talks about this?
 

The Nail

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
From the book:
  • Rest long enough between sets to assure no drop-off in technical proficiency, get-up strength and swing power. Progressively but not aggressively reduce the rest intervals.
  • When you reach the 1: 1 work-to-rest ratio in one of the exercises— 100 total swings in five minutes; ten total get-ups in ten minutes— and can do this strongly almost any day, move up in weight in that exercise.
You are not missing anything.
 

jca17

More than 300 posts
Do you know where in the book he talks about this?
The fifth chapter of part ii. It's called "Secrets of Breath Mastery". The book just keeps giving with each reading. I got the audio version with Pavel reading and it's great. Comes at a discount if you already have kindle edition. Awesome to hear the instruction straight from the source while on the road. :)
It jumped out at me differently to hear his deep authorative say "I strongly urge you to implement breath timing into your daily S&S regimen." Instead of just passing over with my eyes. How did I miss this "strong urging" from the chief himself!?
 

Anna C

More than 5000 posts
Elite Certified Instructor
+1 to the Audible version of S&S. I listened to it many times and learned something more each time.

And @Michael Scott if you only have the digital (Kindle) version, you might want to consider getting the print version. The words are all there in both, but the print version is much richer in presentation of content. Well worth $14 for something you do every day.

Breath timing is awesome. It makes you focus on improving the quality of your recovery breathing in addition to giving you a non-electronic way to pace your swings.

Swings on the minute, but what is the guideline on the TGU'S?
IMO, 10-15 min total time is always about right for get-ups, with each one taking 35 seconds or so, 30 of that with the kettlebell off the ground. If you go much faster than 10 minutes you're probably rushing the get-up itself, or using a weight that's not very challenging. If it takes way longer than 10 minutes for the 10 get-ups, why? Sometimes it does for me, but only if I'm really challenging myself with the weight... and in that case, it's not one that I could do every day and recover, per the program.

Rest long enough between sets to assure no drop-off in technical proficiency, get-up strength and swing power. Progressively but not aggressively reduce the rest intervals.
I know this is a quote from the book, but I'll say that while I completely agree with the first statement, I don't really agree with the second. For the first statement; yes, you should never rush the next set to the point where you can't do it to the same standard. But as far as the rest intervals in the second statement... In my experience, it's always going to be two different types of session; either a session where you get plenty of recovery between sets of swings (OTM, or maybe as short as going every :45 or as long as going every 1:30), or a session where you push the pace to going every :30 to finish in the 5 minutes, or close to that to finish in less than 7 minutes. The first type with plenty of recovery is more A+A, the second type is more glycolytic. I know, there's no magical switch where you go from one to the other... but personally I just don't spend a lot of time in the middle ground, and I don't see a reason to. I either do one or the other. The second one, doing the swings in 5 minutes, is HARD and I don't think it would ever be easy unless I use a ridiculously light weight. So to me this idea where it gradually becomes easier and you gradually reduce the rest periods is just not accurate. In my mind, you either push the pace, or you don't. Both types of sessions are valuable. As long as you can maintain technical proficiency of swings and you are healthy and well, you should push the pace sometimes. It's only 5 minutes, challenge yourself and get through it. It does get easier if you do it periodically; challenging your breathing, your energy systems, your mental determination, your grip, your muscular endurance...It's a great challenge. Just not one for every day.
 

The Nail

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
So to me this idea where it gradually becomes easier and you gradually reduce the rest periods is just not accurate. In my mind, you either push the pace, or you don't. Both types of sessions are valuable.
After you possess a decent level of strength and conditioning, yes I agree that it's better to either push the pace or train in a punch the clock manner. There is a limit to your ability to progressively reduce rest periods.

It can be done, but only to a certain point. It is a good beginner tactic.

When I started S&S I had to rest 5:00 between swings. Focusing on progressively reducing rest periods at that point was fine. Today I can do 1:00 swing intervals near daily, but now it would be unwise to try to progressively reduce rest intervals by 5 seconds each week.

The fuzzy bit is the 'to a point'; once basic methods no longer work you must utilize more complex methods to progress. However, folks should rely on the basic methods for as long as possible.
 

Michael Scott

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
So many great responses, thank you all. It appears that I need to read the book again, as I completely missed the part about breath mastery. I know what I am doing over lunch today.

@Anna C , thank you for the two cup of coffee answer...;) I think I will start this OTM style tonight for my swings. I know I can do the time standard for get-ups with this weight, so I think I will move back up to the 20 kg kettlebell this week.
 

James_Perth

My Third Post
From the book:
  • Rest long enough between sets to assure no drop-off in technical proficiency, get-up strength and swing power. Progressively but not aggressively reduce the rest intervals.
  • When you reach the 1: 1 work-to-rest ratio in one of the exercises— 100 total swings in five minutes; ten total get-ups in ten minutes— and can do this strongly almost any day, move up in weight in that exercise.
You are not missing anything.
In 6 weeks with the 16kg bell I am now ticking over 10x 10 2h swings in 5 min, using a Tabata Timer in 3o sec intervals. I get about 12-15 sec rest I guess.

Anna C has confirmed my thinking I can now bring in a 24kg bell and start to include some sets with the heavier weight. I am so stoked because I am usually crap at (all) weights/ resistance exercises and I can see some improvement with KB so quickly !
 

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I can't recall exactly but I think it was @aciampa who said that a reasonable guide to test yourself is if you consistently do OTM in 10 minutes with a bell and it is 'easy'. As we know, 'easy' is relative, of course. My take, possibly a wrong one, is that it is aerobic but that is only my experience of it. When I could comfortably do 10 x 10 in or around 10 minutes and stay aerobic, under or at my maf number/talk test/easy breathing marker, I could make 5 minutes in a test. And do it again, almost on any day. Attempting it earlier meant that I could just make it or nearly miss it but really felt it in the following days of rest!
I'm re-simplifying myself again at the moment and have many days of practice ahead of me still before attempting the goal!
 

Jan

More than 500 posts
@James Perth: Great going! Keep up the good work. One word of advice though: do not progress too fast, you do not want to burn out. Plan in a few light sessions now and then.
 
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