Other/Mixed Exercising for longevity vs performance

[watchnerd]

Is exercising to gain strength, build muscle, and lose fat the same as exercising for longevity?

The video claims that it's different if one is exercising with the intent of activating autophagy.

 

[Ege]

I hope I will not come across as harsh or ignorant, I know how you train and your experience and love the information you kindly share w us.

The video just boiled my blood a bit…. Maybe on top of what life serves me today

Honestly, him talking about his training program as with a frequency of one session in two weeks as high intensity to preserve/build muscle, and not mentioning or not knowing about Mike Mentzer who is the person who either invented this method or at least made it popular, decreases my trust to this person in the video.

I can only talk about personal experience, as a person who trained w HIT (not HIIT) principals for 6 months mostly with resistance bands/calisthenics etc with great muscle building success. Who then discovered push pull legs split and followed a calisthenics hyperthropy program and then started to practice daily and by using SF principals to gain strength,, the positive impact of high frequency strength training is day and night for me.

With HIT you can gain muscle, and that muscle might even be more than you gain through daily strength practice (I can’t say for sure) but I would pick the positive impacts of SF principals over HIT anytime.

And it is quite hard for me that HIT protocol would create similar or better longevity results than daily movement, training, exercise, practice whatever you name it

Ps: Did not watch the entire video, jumped in to his routine that he talks about basically HIT.

One other aspect for me that decreases his credibility is him talking about muscles (when I skip the video titles) this indicates me he can be an advocate of machines, isolation exercises etc. There in my opinion could be no real life scenario that those modalities would be better than moving your own body with or without external resistance for anything health or longevity or life quality.

Best;

Looking forward to hearing opposing ideas and corrections to learn from.

 

[watchnerd]

I hope I will not come across as harsh or ignorant, I know how you train and your experience and love the information you kindly share w us.

The video just boiled my blood a bit…. Maybe on top of what life serves me today

Thanks, but just to be clear, I'm not endorsing the thinking in this video.

After all, I do train for performance and hope that improved fitness leads to improved longevity comes as a by-product.

I just thought it was an interesting challenge to a lot of assumptions about exercise and longevity.

I certainly haven't intentionally trained for autophagy.

 

[Ege]

Thanks, but just to be clear, I'm not endorsing the thinking in this video.

After all, I do train for performance and hope that improved fitness leads to improved longevity comes as a by-product.

I just thought it was an interesting challenge to a lot of assumptions about exercise and longevity.

I certainly haven't intentionally trained for autophagy.

Yes, I understand it and I like you to share different aspects just to share even if you don’t endorse. I did not think you have endorsed because even if biweekly training will increase your longevity, I would guess that you couldn’t skip 13 days .

 

[Symanoy]

I've not watched the video. But my understanding was that autophagy was brought on by fasting. In a fasted state the body starts stripping away ineffective cells and doing a general clean up which is what produces the so called anti-aging benefits.

 

[Bauer]

Haven't watched the video but I find the topic interesting. First of all, Pavel makes some great points in this article:

The Cost of Adaptation | StrongFirst

The path to health seems simple: train hard, increase health, live happily ever after. But the cost of adaptation makes you vulnerable to other stressors.

www.strongfirst.com

If you choose health, do not reach for Olympic medals, avoid narrow specialization, and train in moderation. Because high adaptation cost is experienced especially by specialist athletes and people who perform hard physical labor.(6)

Soviet research teaches us that sport training and physical culture lead to a significant decrease in diseases overall and injuries.(7) Renown Soviet scientist Prof. Zimkin concluded, “It has been determined from animal experiments and observation of human subjects that muscular activity increases the organism’s non-specific resistance to many unfavorable stressors people are subjected to in modern conditions, e.g. hypoxia, some poisons, radioactive materials, infections, overheating, overcooling, etc. A significant decrease in illnesses has been observed in people training for sport or practicing physical culture.” He went on to add that “rational” training is what is needed to deliver such resilience.(8) Moderate physical loads stimulate the immune system.(9)

Edit: An in SecondWind Pavel mentions that one downside from strength training can be diminished Vital Lung Capacity, which is related to all-cause mortality. He prescribes ballistics with power breathing and superdeep breathing (1+3 exercise from SecondWind) against it.

 

[Bauer]

And speaking of autophagy and cell renewal, here is some interesting stuff from Craig Marker (combination of training and nutrition):

#42 - Craig Marker: Fission & Fusion Training - The Strength Connection

In the 42nd episode of The Strenght Connection Podcats, Mike and our special guest Former Elite Instructor at StrongFirst, Professor of Research and Methods, Craig Marker will talk about fission vs fusion diets, Craig’s first experience with fusio...

www.buzzsprout.com

He calls it "Fission & Fusion" and focusses on mitochondria.
Fission: Killing damaged parts of mitochondria. Cleaning up deficient cells. Means: Fasting (e.g. 14 hours before training), Supplements (NAD, apigenin and other stuff), high intensity training (draining ATP, triggering AMPK, etc.): Q&D style training, A+A training, other intervals, eating fat (no carbs or protein)
Fusion: mTor activation for cell generation and crowth. Strenght and hypertrophy style training, protein, BCAAs, , dark chocolate, ...

Btw, I am not following this and find it too bio-hackish, but I find it interesting to think about different types of adaptations.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Without watching the video, which I’ll likely do at some point in the near future, pretty much all resistance training if not exercise generally will trigger autophagy. Pretty much anything that knocks down glucose reserves will do, which is how fasting triggers it. And yes, this includes alactic strategies until proven otherwise.

 

[TimothyGander]

Is exercising to gain strength, build muscle, and lose fat the same as exercising for longevity?

I think the trap this video uses is to equate "autophagy" with "all the longevity benefits of exercise". Maybe a biweekly workout really is enough for the former, but why does it matter?

For example, even pure strength seems like an important longevity related adaptation if your consider elderly casualties caused by falls. Same goes for hypertrophy - there's lots of research pointing to muscle as endocrine active tissue. And then there're mitochondrial adaptations, the cardiovascular system, neural-training aspect of regular physical activity...

 

[TimothyGander]

However, there is a real conflict between longevity and performance goals, on the both ends. At the lower end, longevity (if I correctly interpret it as "prolongation of typical Western lifestyle") does not require that much. If you just want to live longer, you don't need to train like someone who's going to fight in a war, hike in inhospitable mountains, or play a team sport at an elite level. The diminishing returns hit a lot earlier if you don't care about performance at all. To use an example from my earlier post, if you can bench press 100 lbs and deadlift 225 your chances of falling and dying in a bathtub are already approximately zero.

At the other end, extremely high-level performance may conflict with long-term health. Eventually a choice between stagnation and further progress at expense of longevity presents itself. Many have-been star athletes are wrecks for a reason. But this is a concern of a tiny elite, not the typical "longevity" fitness client anyway.

 

[North Coast Miller]

So after a quick watch I’m coming away with 2 features presented:

- how it is possible to maintain using reduced frequency training. I have no issue with this approach except that the frequency is almost certainly influenced by total FFM. If you are 10lbs over a lean sedentary weight, you can get away with less work than if you are 40lbs over a lean sedentary weight.

- the second is optimum timing for autophagy. Given that ROS play a key role, and anti-oxidative capacity is positively linked to frequency of exposure, I’m far from convinced that infrequent, high stress exposures are the ideal mechanism. This is a guaranteed method for perpetuating a weak response to oxidative stress. One can make the argument for glucose depletion and by extension a low oxygen environment, but that happens very rapidly at higher load intensity anyway, and needn’t be chased specifically. Def a case to be made for not training too casually.

 

[Steve Freides]

As @Bauer suggests, The Cost of Adaptation | StrongFirst will answer the questions raised here.

-S-

 

[Spartan Agoge]

Is exercising to gain strength, build muscle, and lose fat the same as exercising for longevity?

The video claims that it's different if one is exercising with the intent of activating autophagy.

It is commonly accepted that autophagy is indeed related to longevity. However, the most efficient eay to induce autophagy is through prolonged fasting, at least 48 hours.
So(in theory), for performance: strength training and sprints. For longevity: endurance training and fasting.
For me though, the most important is to have a relatively low bodyfat percentage, low cortisol levels and being able to to basic movements.

 

[ali]

Always find this subject very interesting. It's possible to frame a view with data to support that view whilst simultaneously ignoring other data which negates that view. There are just so many variables to really, really focus on a single issue with precision.

Longevity is the new health. Training for health or training for longevity? I don't know what or if there is any difference, really. But the difference perhaps is the marketability of 'longevity'. It's easy to sex up with wellness bling, more science-y sounding and thus products and or beliefs can be bolstered by claims that the rather dull approach that it's just 'good for you' fails.

In longevity studies of blue zones formal exercise does not feature, so in the absence of blue zone living exercise and activity is a proxy for the physical activity in those blue zones. Maybe? And with failing health in a western lifestyle exercise is an intervention rather than a norm.
Screenshot of a paper by Inigo Sam Milan.....



As noted earlier, exercise and movement supports autophagy. The issue of stress resilience and risk/reward differentiates health and performance. If you burn the candle at both ends then the potential for a negative response is increased. That may not be due to training excess by itself though but an assortment of stress variables.

If you are in good health, your systems function well then there is an expectation that you will perform better in a state of good health rather than in poor health.

 

[SFSparky]

#250 ‒ Training principles for longevity | Andy Galpin, Ph.D. (PART II) - Peter Attia

“The best marathoners in the world would smash almost everyone you know in a 100-meter dash. They're blazingly fast.” —Andy Galpin

peterattiamd.com

They don't get into the meat of training for longevity until toward the end of the podcast. Potentially helpful information, nonetheless.

 

[Don Fairbanks]

Thanks, but just to be clear, I'm not endorsing the thinking in this video.

After all, I do train for performance and hope that improved fitness leads to improved longevity comes as a by-product.

I just thought it was an interesting challenge to a lot of assumptions about exercise and longevity.

I certainly haven't intentionally trained for autophagy.

Seems to me he is saying, Sensibly suck some air, jack your HR, cause some damage, think full body, recover. The frequency he chooses is irrelevant to me.

 

[North Coast Miller]

…And I love that all these longevity experts are basically kids, or they’re not even old enough to be retired. Taking marriage advice from someone who just got engaged.

 

[watchnerd]

…And I love that all these longevity experts are basically kids, or they’re not even old enough to be retired. Taking marriage advice from someone who just got engaged.

What a waste of youth!

Maximizing longevity was the opposite of my agenda when young.

 

[silveraw]

…And I love that all these longevity experts are basically kids, or they’re not even old enough to be retired. Taking marriage advice from someone who just got engaged.

The advice from some of the old timers does sound more fun.
Smoke cigars every day and make sure your morning coffee has some whiskey in it - 108 year old vet Richard Overton

America's Oldest Veteran Drinks Whiskey And Smokes Cigars At Age 108

Even at 108 years old, America's oldest living...

finance.yahoo.com

 

[Bauer]

Here is a nice large sample study:

Dose–response association of aerobic and muscle-strengthening physical activity with mortality: a national cohort study of 416 420 US adults | British Journal of Sports Medicine

Objectives To investigate the dose–response association of aerobic physical activity (PA) and muscle-strengthening exercise (MSE) with all-cause mortality.

Methods National Health Interview Survey data (1997–2014) were linked to the National Death Index through 2015, which produced a cohort of 416 420 US adults. Cox proportional-hazard models were used to estimate HRs and 95% CIs for the associations of moderate aerobic PA (MPA), vigorous aerobic PA (VPA) and MSE with mortality risk. Models controlled for age, sex, race-ethnicity, income, education, marital status, survey year, smoking status, body mass index and chronic conditions.

Results Relative to those who engaged in no aerobic PA, substantial mortality risk reduction was associated with 1 hour/week of aerobic PA (HR: 0.85, 95% CI: 0.83 to 0.86) and levelled off at 3 hours/week of aerobic PA (0.73, 0.71 to 0.75). Similar results were observed for men and women and for individuals younger and older than 60 years. MSE conferred additional mortality risk reduction at 1 time/week (0.89, 0.81 to 0.97) and appeared no longer beneficial at 7 times/week (0.99, 0.94 to 1.04).

Conclusion The minimum effective dose of aerobic PA for significant mortality risk reduction was 1 hour/week of MPA or VPA, with additional mortality risk reduction observed up to 3 hours/week. For older adults, only small decreases in mortality risk were observed beyond this duration. Completing MSE in combination with aerobic PA conferred additional mortality risk reduction, with a minimum effective dose of 1–2 times/week.

Aerobic exercise + strength training seems to be a ver powerful combination (but if it is either/or then aerobic exercises seems to be more important).

Btw, this is how Arnold Schwarzenegger summarized the study in his newsletter:

The scientists found that just 1 hour of aerobic exercise per week can lower your mortality risk by 15 percent. If you bump that up to 3 hours, you’re looking at a 27 percent reduction. But the real boost occurs when you add strength training.

Those who added resistance training one or two times per week saw a 40 percent reduction in mortality risk. To put that into context, that’s the same health improvement you’d see between a non-smoker and someone who smokes half a pack per day.