Experiences with higher frequency training?

bluejeff

Level 5 Valued Member
I am curious to know what everyone's experiences are with higher frequency training (defined as: training the same movement patterns, skills, etc 4 or more times per week); what pros and cons have you experienced?

My interest in this arises from how martial artists traditionally trained: doing the same skills pretty much daily to learn and refine them. I think it's safe to say that SF's motto of "strength as skill" fits this model pretty well. I also understand the trade off between something like how fast you want to gain muscle vs get strong (faster hypertrophy = more volume per workout with lots of rest between sessions, strength = lower volume, higher frequency). I love to train and have always struggled to balance my volume/frequency/intensity well. I'd love to find a happy medium between strength and muscle building with a more frequent practice (I like idea of the fighter pullup program, and have considered applying it to pike pushups to work towards a solid HSPU).

So, what kinds of experiences have people had with higher frequency training? Faster strength? Muscle building? Over-training? Energy levels?
 

bluejeff

Level 5 Valued Member
Course: Kettlebell STRONG!
Unfortunately 90% of my goals are body weight in nature...I use KBs mostly for moves I can't load enough with body weight only (like hinging, loading my legs more, keeping my shoulders from developing unilateral imbalances). thanks though!
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

Frequency can be almost daily provided you rest well from the training. This tend to be verified with S&S up to Simple, or strategies like "The daily dose" (as described in the "daily dose deadlift" article) or GTG.

From my experience, repeating the exact same pattern that frequently makes us very proficient at it (less energy to get the same result). I gain a lot of strength of it, but very few hypertrophy, which is normal. Loads and rest are not appropriate for this goal.

However, when training volume required by the program is more important (such as RoP), frequency is reduced. I get more "hyerpertrophy" from this kind of strategy.

I gain strength at the same "pace" using either a RoP or a S&S frequency, but I have constant amount of energy using the former.

As far as muscle building goes, since I do S&S, I "melt" like snow under the sun and I almost look "anorexic" (1,83m and 61kg...). I do not get hypertrophy from it. RoP gives me more hypertrophy.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Papa Georgio

Level 5 Valued Member
So, what kinds of experiences have people had with higher frequency training? Faster strength? Muscle building? Over-training? Energy levels?
Faster Strength - Yes. But these types programs work better with fewer number of exercises. So this focus and frequency will build skill & strength more quickly.
Muscle Building - I think I posted my opinions in another thread recently. 90% of all muscle building is based on weekly tonnage (weight X volume) and calorie intake. However you break up your tonnage (across 3 days, 4 days, 5 days, whatever) makes less difference. Your body will adapt to the frequency after a week or 2.
Over-training - Like I said, I really believe that it's based on weekly tonnage for any program. The body is capable of building up to some large volume of work, but you have to work up to it slowly.
Energy Levels - At first, high frequency can zap you, especially if you start off to heavy and/or too much volume, but your body will adapt in a week or so. Your energy levels will go up, and you will rarely get sore (as long as you don't try to progress too fast)

Overall, I like high frequency programs and they work very well as long as you:
* Keep the number of exercises to a minimum (2-5, where closer to 2 is better)
* Regulate your volume/tonnage on a weekly basis, progress volume and intensity slow

In the end, the best frequency for you will really be dictated by your lifestyle. Whatever frequency that allows you to get the necessary weekly tonnage/volume to make progress is what matters.

As far as muscle building goes, since I do S&S, I "melt" like snow under the sun and I almost look "anorexic" (1,83m and 61kg...). I do not get hypertrophy from it. RoP gives me more hypertrophy.
I am not a doctor, but you may want to get a check up with one, or check your weekly calorie intake. Total body mass is usually dictated by calories (short term) and hormones (long term & mainly insulin level). That sounds pretty underweight for your height for anybody, much less for someone doing resistance training.
 

bluejeff

Level 5 Valued Member
Thanks both of you!

I wonder if anyone has read/used Chad Waterbury's high-frequency training? He has written a bunch on his successes with it.
 

watchnerd

Level 5 Valued Member
As far as muscle building goes, since I do S&S, I "melt" like snow under the sun and I almost look "anorexic" (1,83m and 61kg...). I do not get hypertrophy from it. RoP gives me more hypertrophy.
Pet', if you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

I'm your height (182 cm), but I haven't been as light as you are since, wow....maybe age 13?

If you're 80, that's a different matter.
 

bluejeff

Level 5 Valued Member
Who is Chad Waterbury?
Physical therapist and strength/conditioning coach. He's one of those people that's not super famous but has very quality ideas (at least as far as I can tell from my own reading)



and . . .this article is getting a bit old, but it's still interesting:

This next one is not Waterbury, but the study he cites is from 2018, and Waterbury has been promoting this style of training at least 10 years prior.

 

LukeV

Level 5 Valued Member
I've done PTTP @ 5 days weekly and Justa Singles @ 7 days weekly, also some Dan John thing @ six days weekly, from memory, for quite lengthy periods. I enjoyed it and would recommend the experience for those whose goal is strength. I made good progress and enjoyed the discipline because recovery is the priority - everything is sacrificed for the goal of returning to the gym the next day. I also found it great for skills development because what happened yesterday is still so fresh in your mind, rather than having to cast back to what happened days ago. For me, high frequency training was not effective for hypertrophy because the volume is kept low and you stay well away from failure, to facilitate recovery. Others may have experienced that differently.

Edit: I read the link on mennohenselmans.com above and I see one study claimed five full body workouts to failure weekly. I always read that stuff with amazement. Even in my glory days, early twenties, with the recuperative powers of youth and all the help that (legal) supplements could provide, I could not do more than three full body workouts to failure weekly and even at three I was deloading frequently. There was no way I could do a full body workout to failure and turn up and do another one the next day. No way! The next day I was still hobbling around
 
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watchnerd

Level 5 Valued Member
Physical therapist and strength/conditioning coach.
Ah.

There are a lot of those in the world.

Many of them are good at marketing and write compelling articles.

Personally, I tend to gravitate to the S&C coaches who have a track record of coaching winning athletes.

I was lucky enough to learn the Olympic lifts from the USA weightlifting team coach for the 1980, 1988, and 1992 Olympics.

So I tend to follow the methods that are proven to work for my sport (with mods for age).

But if one doesn't have a specific sport, the path is wider. :)
 

Nate

Level 5 Valued Member
Lot of SF overlap w/ Chad.

59:45 – Chad gives a shoutout to Pavel Tsatsouline’s Strong Endurance seminar
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Lot of SF overlap w/ Chad.

59:45 – Chad gives a shoutout to Pavel Tsatsouline’s Strong Endurance seminar
Good find!
 

wespom9

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Chad Waterbury is a very smart, practical guy from everything I've read, which is admittedly not much but my opinion stands.
 

bluejeff

Level 5 Valued Member
I read the link on mennohenselmans.com above and I see one study claimed five full body workouts to failure weekly. I always read that stuff with amazement. Even in my glory days, early twenties, with the recuperative powers of youth and all the help that (legal) supplements could provide, I could not do more than three full body workouts to failure weekly and even at three I was deloading frequently. There was no way I could do a full body workout to failure and turn up and do another one the next day. No way! The next day I was still hobbling around
That's a good observation. I'm not sure off the top of my head, but Menno in a few articles is always skeptical of studies that claim "training to failure."
He says: "Split squats and deadlifts to failure? I don’t think so"

Waterbury's style of high frequency training is more in line with SF principles: staying away from failure, avoiding the burn, and keeping daily volume manageable so you can perform well next session. I believe he even recommends switching (at least slightly) the exercise you're doing for each muscle group from day to day.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

Below is an interesting routine from Warerbury, based on 'micro workouts' during the day. Some kind of GTG then :

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

bluejeff

Level 5 Valued Member
Yep!

Much of what I've seen from him advises splitting sessions up throughout the day. It's mentioned in the pull-up article I posted. The idea being that you should do whatever your high-frequency moves are hours apart from your other training.

Same idea as "farmer strength," or getting big and strong because your job involves lots of heavy work. I believe it was Waterbury who mentions in an article somewhere that he noticed his arms got much bigger after a couple months working a job as a mover (moving furniture and the like). He also cites the forearms of mechanics and the calves of soccer players....
 
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