Other/Mixed Expert/Professional versus Amateur Disconnect

[Kozushi]

This is kind of philosophical but I think a very real problem in sports. If we're talking about sports for participation, for health, which is why 99% of us or more do them, we're talking about different goals, motivations and needs from pros. Yet, we go to pros for advice and for training. There has to be some kind of disconnect here.

As a case in point, me. I noticed my progress at S&S naturally move forward until I hit a wall at doing the swings with the 32 and the TGUs with the 40 on a regular basis. Given that I have been able to on a good day do the swings with the 40 and the TGUs with the 48, I don't doubt that with the proper, scientific training, I could likely attain doing the entire routine with the 48 one day and this is certainly a goal for me. However, once I stopped progressing naturally by just doing the same stuff, I attained a very satisfactory level of strength and fitness beyond which I as an amateur am not particularly motivated to try to break past. This doesn't mean that progress past this is undesirable, but rather that it isn't a pressing need. It's like actually hitting the "Simple" goal technically. I've done the swings in as little as 7 minutes a few times, but I'm not motivated to go for the 5 minutes. I don't see what the extra two minutes will do for me as an amateur lifter, not that I dispute its validity of a proficiency marker.

I see the same thing in amateur sports like judo and kendo that I have spent years at. No recreational player that I'm am aware of can hold a candle to a pro/expert in either sport. So, in fact the goal of doing these sports recreationally cannot be to become as skillful as a pro, which is impossible, but rather has to be something else. What is that something else here is my question for this thread. If it's judo it certainly isn't just to get a workout, since there are myriad ways to do this which are safer, more effective and easier. The same goes for weights. A good friend of mine deadlifts 585. I deadlift 370. I don't feel any pressing need to progress, nor does he, interestingly enough.

I suppose I also simply find it interesting that we can all get to a certain level of proficiency without really knowing too much about anything, and it's not a bad level, certainly much more than those who don't make any effort at all.

I'd even go as far as to say I'm not really doing S&S any more for just fitness. I'm doing it for other reasons like it's just an interesting activity with pleasing movements and challenges which also doubles as a healthy activity.

For judo, it isn't so much about whether I'm winning or not, but about getting more skillful at the movements and tactics generally and simply enjoying the feeling of increasing skill and insight, with of course the side effects of fitness and self-defence. This is worlds away from a competitive pro, but is likely a lot closer to the goals/needs of the vast majority of adult judoka.

 

[Antti]

I think it's important to separate a pro athlete and a pro trainer. Being good in a sport doesn't make one a good teacher, and other way round as well. But I think a certain degree of walking the walk can be expected.

When it comes to the sport and exercise, the first step is to learn how to do it safely. The second would be how to do it effectively, do what you're trying to do with a specific sport or exercise or lift - like don't do a good morning squat, do either a good morning or the squat. After those are taken care of, the rest depends on individual goals.

There also is a difference between just spending time at the gym and making progress. In my experience, most people aren't averse to getting better or getting stronger. They don't like the prospect of the perceived effort necessary. That's where a good trainer becomes helpful again. Instead of just exercising, we can train, and train smart.

I'm not sure if progress becomes that much harder as time goes by, at least for the recreational athlete, it just becomes much slower.

 

[Bauer]

Maybe that is Pavel's biggest accomplishment: To enable amateurs to develop stronger than average strength without having to devote their life to it as if they were professionals. He's the master coach guiding us along a certain way - more straightforward and simplified at the beginning (think PttP and S&S) and more finetuned and sophisticated later on (think waving protocols etc.)

 

[Steve Freides]

Great topic, great discussion so far.

-S-

 

[offwidth]

This is kind of philosophical but I think a very real problem in sports. If we're talking about sports for participation, for health, which is why 99% of us or more do them, we're talking about different goals, motivations and needs from pros. Yet, we go to pros for advice and for training. There has to be some kind of disconnect here.

As a case in point, me. I noticed my progress at S&S naturally move forward until I hit a wall at doing the swings with the 32 and the TGUs with the 40 on a regular basis. Given that I have been able to on a good day do the swings with the 40 and the TGUs with the 48, I don't doubt that with the proper, scientific training, I could likely attain doing the entire routine with the 48 one day and this is certainly a goal for me. However, once I stopped progressing naturally by just doing the same stuff, I attained a very satisfactory level of strength and fitness beyond which I as an amateur am not particularly motivated to try to break past. This doesn't mean that progress past this is undesirable, but rather that it isn't a pressing need. It's like actually hitting the "Simple" goal technically. I've done the swings in as little as 7 minutes a few times, but I'm not motivated to go for the 5 minutes. I don't see what the extra two minutes will do for me as an amateur lifter, not that I dispute its validity of a proficiency marker.

I see the same thing in amateur sports like judo and kendo that I have spent years at. No recreational player that I'm am aware of can hold a candle to a pro/expert in either sport. So, in fact the goal of doing these sports recreationally cannot be to become as skillful as a pro, which is impossible, but rather has to be something else. What is that something else here is my question for this thread. If it's judo it certainly isn't just to get a workout, since there are myriad ways to do this which are safer, more effective and easier. The same goes for weights. A good friend of mine deadlifts 585. I deadlift 370. I don't feel any pressing need to progress, nor does he, interestingly enough.

I suppose I also simply find it interesting that we can all get to a certain level of proficiency without really knowing too much about anything, and it's not a bad level, certainly much more than those who don't make any effort at all.

I'd even go as far as to say I'm not really doing S&S any more for just fitness. I'm doing it for other reasons like it's just an interesting activity with pleasing movements and challenges which also doubles as a healthy activity.

For judo, it isn't so much about whether I'm winning or not, but about getting more skillful at the movements and tactics generally and simply enjoying the feeling of increasing skill and insight, with of course the side effects of fitness and self-defence. This is worlds away from a competitive pro, but is likely a lot closer to the goals/needs of the vast majority of adult judoka.

You might need to add some definition around the terms professional and amateur.
In some contexts a 'pro' is an individual who is getting paid or compensated for their performance. I know in some cases like the Olympics the distinction is blurred.

How many Kendo players are being paid? Not many. But then maybe being paid should not be the definition of a professional. Certainly the average Kendo club member, even very good ones aren't competing at international levels, yet they train pretty much the same way. We had guys in our club who competed at the national level. You know some of the same people I know.

I think it also depends upon the activity in question. I know some world class climbers who can climb as hard as any 'pro'. But climbing is a different thing and for the best it's more of a lifestyle choice than a sport, one does for mere recreation.

So I think context is important when discussing pro and amateur...

 

[Jim Lauerman]

I just want to add that this is a discussion that I have wished for for years. I am an amateur in every sense of the word. I get in trouble when I forget that because I read on a forum that I don’t meet some “standard” established to prove one’s worth or to be an “athlete”.

Thanks to @Kozushi for starting the discussion.

 

[North Coast Miller]

No recreational player that I'm am aware of can hold a candle to a pro/expert in either sport. So, in fact the goal of doing these sports recreationally cannot be to become as skillful as a pro, which is impossible, but rather has to be something else. What is that something else here is my question for this thread.

Personal advancement. It doesn't need a rhyme or reason, just the pursuit of some activity with a goal to become "good". Makes it easier to become good at other pursuits, since proficiency normally involves a progression.

I default back to the Maxwell philosophy for this sort of question - if you compete at the pro level (or even high level amateur) you accept that the activity itself and quite possibly the best practices physical prep might be harmful and or involve risk of injury.

At lower levels of competitiveness it becomes more of a social thing.

But I agree, there is no good reason to train like the pros, with the exception of strength sports, but it is nice to see how they train and maybe adopt some of their practices. When it comes to power or olympic lifting it doesn't make sense not to train like the pros as much as one is able.

When fitness is an adjunct to performance, you have a lot more flexibility. And again, even among the pros there is no real consensus depending on the sport - eg James Toney didn't even lift weights or jump rope IIRC, his entire training regimen was sparring.

 

[offwidth]

But I agree, there is no good reason to train like the pros,

Again, in my mind it comes back to definition of a 'pro', and of course what your reasons for training are. I think in some cases there are good reasons to train like a 'pro'.

 

[offwidth]

I might even go a step further and (depending upon our definition of what 'training like a pro' is)... say, why wouldn't you want to train as a pro?

 

[Al Ciampa]

The deciding factor is out of your control: genetics. Pros (however defined) have the genetic capacity to absorb more training and the training is more effective, due to their genetic gifts. Think about any variable that science understands to make a difference... muscle fiber type, fractional VO2max, etc; and they will be mostly genetically determined. Its invisible, so most of us ignore it, but Kozushi is correct: pros (however defined) run circles around everyone else, and no amount of training will take a mortal to the pros (whatever that is).

That said, I think Martin's opinion of strength training like pros (whatever that is) is misguided. Mortals can't absorb the volume or loading of the genetically gifted. So if you say train like them, but use lighter weights and less volume... well, then you are not training like them.

This is a fantastic topic and discussion, and is precisely the reason why most people constantly fail at their attempts at fitness. You are likely not a genetically gifted human; if you are, it will show itself rather early in your training. Most of my day job is convincing the average that they are failing because they are following principles for the mutants. This is where SOC differs from sport: you can be mortal, train intelligently and meet SOC standards, moving forward to be a competent and valuable team member. It helps to be a mutant, and those mutants will be able to absorb different training and attain higher levels of fitness. So, if you're mortal, don't training like a mutant. Mortals can achieve pretty high levels of fitness, it simply requires more time and intelligent training. And don't chase arbitrary goals.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I might even go a step further and (depending upon our definition of what 'training like a pro' is)... say, why wouldn't you want to train as a pro?

You aren't involved in a sport with a peaking phase/season at an amateur level, but the pros do have one.

Too much activity specific prep that doesn't have good carry-over to day to day, particularly using lifts/protocols with higher injury potential.

Lack of location specific environment or specialized equipment.

The pros are a lot younger than you in a specific sport and can tolerate different training intensities while still recovering. There are no pros in your adopted sport at your age.

Lack of consensus re best training practices among the pros in your adopted sport. You could still train like one of them, but would then be training unlike others anyway.


For some sports it makes perfect sense to train like the pros as much as practical, but for others I'd say no thank you - depends on the specifics.

 

[Al Ciampa]

Again, in my mind it comes back to definition of a 'pro', and of course what your reasons for training are. I think in some cases there are good reasons to train like a 'pro'.

I might even go a step further and (depending upon our definition of what 'training like a pro' is)... say, why wouldn't you want to train as a pro?

I think "Mutant" and "Mortal" describe the difference. If you think you're a mutant, try training like one. If progress, you might be one; if not, you're probably not. I really believe that it is this simple.

 

[offwidth]

This is a great discussion...

I'll throw this out there for consideration:

Depending upon activity.

• Motivation: Can train like a pro
• Dedication: Can train like a pro
• Attention to detail: Can train like a pro
• Access to pro level coaching: Maybe. sport and financial dependent
• Arena of competition: Dependent upon discipline
• Level of play: most of us are just mortals
• Intensity: most of us are just mortals here as well

Most of my frame of reference is based around climbing so those are usually the lenses I wear when discussing things.

 

[offwidth]

I think "Mutant" and "Mortal" describe the difference. If you think you're a mutant, try training like one. If progress, you might be one; if not, you're probably not. I really believe that it is this simple.

Well said

 

[The Nail]

I think "Mutant" and "Mortal" describe the difference. If you think you're a mutant, try training like one. If progress, you might be one; if not, you're probably not. I really believe that it is this simple.

This is a great discussion.

Mutant vs mortal, great way to think about it. Mindset is a factor - mutants are often willing to make the necessary sacrifices to reach the top. The olde-tyme iron gym I train at attracts a lot of individuals who are willing to go the extra mile to reach the top. Last month, a guy was shirted bench pressing 865 and snapped the humerus in his upper arm. How many men are willing to push their bodies to the point of high discomfort, much less push their bodies until they break then get surgery and come back for more? I've seen guys come into this gym with more raw talent than you can shake a stick at, but they never reached the upper echelon of powerlifting simply because they were not willing to train consistently enough. There are things you can do to manage risk of injury, but Lady Fortuna can be a cruel and fickle mistress - you need to be mentally prepared for that, and okay with it.

 

[Kozushi]

You might need to add some definition around the terms professional and amateur.
In some contexts a 'pro' is an individual who is getting paid or compensated for their performance. I know in some cases like the Olympics the distinction is blurred.

How many Kendo players are being paid? Not many. But then maybe being paid should not be the definition of a professional. Certainly the average Kendo club member, even very good ones aren't competing at international levels, yet they train pretty much the same way. We had guys in our club who competed at the national level. You know some of the same people I know.

I think it also depends upon the activity in question. I know some world class climbers who can climb as hard as any 'pro'. But climbing is a different thing and for the best it's more of a lifestyle choice than a sport, one does for mere recreation.

So I think context is important when discussing pro and amateur...

I meant pro/expert. Experts can be non-paid, but they are experts, and you and I could both name names of kendoka in our circle who are absolutely shockingly good, and to whom neither of us could hold a candle ever, and never will.

I've done judo and kendo long enough to have played and even competed against experts, certainly trained under several(!) and I have no hope in Hades of ever doing a thing to them! I'm not saying I never scored a point ever in training with them, but they aren't trying all the time. Basically, no hope in Hades. And, this is from someone who has done both sports for many years (judo much more than kendo, however) and who is often physically larger and stronger than the experts.

Something I've come to recognize recently is that my goals have to be different from them, and here is the base of the disconnect I see between experts and amateurs. It is a mistake, I think now, to consider oneself deficient because one is not progressing like a pro "mutant", hehehe. As an amateur, recreational player, there is a whole other way to train and a whole other standard of success.

I remember writing about walking being a great workout a few months ago and attracted some flak for that from a few serious lifters here. Of course, if you're working out hard daily with heavy weights, something like spending 90 minutes out walking would seem like a waste, but for an amateur who doesn't have the physical stamina to train for lengthy periods with heavy weights, or lacks the skills or the equipment, or whatever, something like walking becomes golden! It's free, safe, requires next to no motivation, but gets the heart rate up to above double resting speed and keeps it there for as long as you walk; the lower body especially gets and maintains a level of strength, and to some basic degree the core, shoulders and neck; also balance training and maintenance of alertness, and probably it's good for your lungs to get outdoor air into them.

An amateur's knowledge is also very much limited by these other goals. It's like an amateur's guide to nutrition - The Four Food Groups. I make sure I get all four every day, that's about it. I'm not counting calories nor paying much attention to vitamins etc. I'm an amateur at nutrition. For exercise, I've learned from Pavel that I want to base my exercises on one big pull and one big push and that I need to get my heart rate up. This is just "three food groups" as relates to exercise. With this dead simple concept I've gotten quite strong and fit for an amateur, and the benefits of this are evident in judo training. I have 3 "expert" weight lifter friends who deadlift and bench around or over 600lbs. Two are or have been successful lifting competitors. I don't hold a candle to them. However, what I can do, as an amateur, is to stay fit and quite a lot stronger than most my size, and to be able to do so, as an ignorant amateur, is a unique skill in and of itself.

 

[offwidth]

I meant pro/expert. Experts can be non-paid, but they are experts, and you and I could both name names of kendoka in our circle who are absolutely shockingly good, and to whom neither of us could hold a candle ever, and never will.

You got that right!!!!

 

[Kozushi]

You got that right!!!!

Like not in a million years. It's hilariously ridiculous actually. No chance in Hades at all.

 

[offwidth]

Like not in a million years. It's hilariously ridiculous actually. No chance in Hades at all.

1970 -2018 The gold medalist in world Kendo have all been from Japan. As indeed have been the vast majority of top 3 finishers.
One of the guys from my club finished 4th in 2006. I don't think I ever scored a hit on him!

 

[Kozushi]

1970 -2018 The gold medalist in world Kendo have all been from Japan. As indeed have been the vast majority of top 3 finishers.
One of the guys from my club finished 4th in 2006. I don't think I ever scored a hit on him!

I'm starting to think it's subconscious trained movements that they have developed over years and years of lengthy practices. I'm beginning to feel this in judo too. I'm doing a lot better these days, but I'm not really consciously aware of why.