all posts post new thread

Barbell Faleev's80/20: Cycling & Starting Weight

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

marcelotine

Level 4 Valued Member
I have two questions regarding Faleev's 80/20.

1. How do you cycle this program? I have read different things as I have pursued through earlier threads on this program. I have read comments that you should cycle similarly to PTTP, or that a cycle should be 6-12 weeks long, and that there is no need to cycle for a while (what does that really mean?). I have also been told that if you stall at a particular weight for more than two weeks, you should reset ten pounds higher similar to PTTP and start a new cycle, whereas the article seems to be saying you stick with the weight until you hit 5x5 can keep going, and possibly make a 5lbs jump rather than 10lbs if it gets too difficult.

Also, am I correct in understanding that the 3 exercises should be cycled together and not on their own? How do you navigate this if you hit a wall with one of them early?

I would appreciate some clarity on this - what should cycling look like for a relative beginner?

2. How do you choose the right starting weight for this program?
 
Thanks - I was looking at Pavel's article which did not have the additional information.

This is helpful.
 
It seems that Faleev wants you to do as many as 5 warm up sets. However, Pavel doesn't seem to care for them. In Pavel's article on this program he seems to reluctantly say, do a warm up set or two if you must.

I would personally prefer not do do warm ups because I don't have the time and I'm lazy - 2 very important reasons why I'm attracted to Pavel's philosophy. :) But i would like to hear from those with experience - am I putting my health and safety in risk?
 
Thanks - I was looking at Pavel's article which did not have the additional information.

This is helpful.
The Pavel article on the Tim Ferris site says to start with a conservative weight and gives instruction on how to proceed from there.

-S-
 
I would personally prefer not do do warm ups because I don't have the time and I'm lazy - 2 very important reasons why I'm attracted to Pavel's philosophy. :) But i would like to hear from those with experience - am I putting my health and safety in risk?
Have a look at Pavel's "Power To The People!" which touches on this subject. Basically, we all need the warmups we're used to and we think we need. So you need whatever you've been doing. But you can try to wean yourself gradually down to little or no warmups. E.g., I typically don't deadlift anything less than 75% 1RM. I do try to structure my lifting so that my first set is at that 75% weight, and that's enough of a warmup for me.

-S-
 
Have a look at Pavel's "Power To The People!" which touches on this subject. Basically, we all need the warmups we're used to and we think we need. So you need whatever you've been doing. But you can try to wean yourself gradually down to little or no warmups. E.g., I typically don't deadlift anything less than 75% 1RM. I do try to structure my lifting so that my first set is at that 75% weight, and that's enough of a warmup for me.

-S-

Thanks. Form what I recall, in PTTP he says to skip the warm ups and get straight to the work sets, and if someone really feels the need to warm up then he recommends using several singles to warm up with. I have some several cycles of PTTP wihtout any warm up and it felt fine..

That said, I think it helps that you are doing the same exercises daily, and also I'm not at any serious poundage yet where it might be riskier to attempt to lift your work sets cold. But I don't know enough on the topic to have a truly informed opinion.
 
@Steve Freides: I am not questioning your point of view. I am sure it is an informed opinion, and I appreciate you sharing it with me.

What I meant, and perhaps could have been clearer in stating, is simply that it seems to me that the PTTP program may be particularly conducive for skipping warm ups given that the same exercises are done on a daily basis and the volume per day is very low (only one work set). And also that perhaps warm ups can be skipped more safely when one is still lifting relatively light (novice/early intermediate) weights. This is just speculation on my part since I do not have the experience or information that can attest to it. I am interested in hearing from those with the experience and the information - such as yourself - as to whether my speculation has any merit to it.

I might be completely wrong. It just occurred to me that in my experience with grappling, warm ups were extremely important for the first year or so - however, my body adjusted to the activity over time and now I feel I can dispense with some of the warm up. These days I usually only stretch and warm up 'problem' areas or areas where I have a previous injury, for instance my elbow joint and arms as I have developed medial epicondylitis from the grappling. Perhaps weight lifting is similar?
 
I apologize for not understanding your post.

Warmups for aerobic activities is a different subject, as it must be for strength/endurance activities like grappling. For strength, one can get used to little or no warmup. In the Tour de France, it’s common to ride the entire course as part of warming up for a short race, short being an hour in length.

I don’t think the things you cited about PTTP are relevant to the subject of warmups for strength training. I deadlifted 8000 lbs in total today with no warmup and am deadlifting 3 days a week. The only thing I can say is that I always deadlift last in my training, and thus may have performed other activities before deadlift, but even when I’m doing nothing but deadlifts, I just dive right in or take a very minimal warmup, e.g., my first working weight these days is 120 kg, and in my earlier session this week, I felt a little stiff, so I did 110 kg x 1 rep and called that my warmup.

-S-
 
I apologize for not understanding your post.

Warmups for aerobic activities is a different subject, as it must be for strength/endurance activities like grappling. For strength, one can get used to little or no warmup. In the Tour de France, it’s common to ride the entire course as part of warming up for a short race, short being an hour in length.

I don’t think the things you cited about PTTP are relevant to the subject of warmups for strength training. I deadlifted 8000 lbs in total today with no warmup and am deadlifting 3 days a week. The only thing I can say is that I always deadlift last in my training, and thus may have performed other activities before deadlift, but even when I’m doing nothing but deadlifts, I just dive right in or take a very minimal warmup, e.g., my first working weight these days is 120 kg, and in my earlier session this week, I felt a little stiff, so I did 110 kg x 1 rep and called that my warmup.

-S-
I don't use too much warm up myself but I do feel that my third and fourth working set is usually my strongest set. Do you feel the same way and do you think that in itself gives merit to warming up?
 
I don't use too much warm up myself but I do feel that my third and fourth working set is usually my strongest set. Do you feel the same way and do you think that in itself gives merit to warming up?
@Pressurechief, welcome to the StrongFirst forum.

I have never noticed that. If I had to choose, I think I might pick my second set as my best sometimes, but I’m often short on time in which to lift, and I like a lot of rest between sets, so for me doing a warmup would often mean not having time for as many work sets.

-S-
 
Faleev wants you to do as many as 5 warm up sets.

Warm Up or Workout?

As per Faleeve, "...warm up with 15 reps with an empty bar, then 10 reps with 100#, then 8 with 180#, 6 with 220#, and 5 with 260#"

After reading that, it made me tired. I had to go lay and rest. With that said, I am not a proponent of this method.

It amount to the Bodybuilding Pyramid System. Starting with a set of 12 reps, then going to 10 reps, then 8, 6, 4 and finally 2; increasing the weight as you decrease the repetitions.

That makes no sense. What occurs is that you deplete you strength, power and energy.

I have increases many a lifter weight and repetitions from one workout to the next in their top set by cutting back on their warm ups.

Think about performing 5 sets of pyramid repetition in a warm up, like this...

100 Meter Sprint Warm Up

1) Run 1600 meters, about a mile

2) Run 1200 meters.

3) Run 800 meters

4) Run 400 Meters

5) Run 200 meters

There are your "5 Sets" that are essentially performed in a Repetition Pyramid.

The Key To A Warm Up

Your most effective training set is your top set; performing the most repetition with the greatest load.

The purpose of the Warm Up is to preform the least amount of work to prepare you for you top set. Doing so, ensures that you have the most strength, power and energy for your top set.

Warm Up Sets are more about practicing your technique (Greasing The Groove); getting a feel for the increasing load and ensuring your bar path is in the zone.

This makes sense...

Pavel doesn't seem to care for them. In Pavel's article on this program he seems to reluctantly say, do a warm up set or two if you must.

Reverse Pyramid

I am an advocate and utilize this method.

Set 1: 3 - 5 Repetitions with a light load.

Set 2: 2 Repetition with slightly heavier load.

Set 3: 1 Repetition with a moderately heavy load.

Set 4: Top Set with near maximum load for usually 3 Repetition or more.

a cycle should be 6-12 weeks long, and that there is no need to cycle for a while

A Training Cycles Length and Training Age

The length of a Training Cycle is dependent on how long (Training Age) you have been training.

Novice Lifters adapt slowly. That means the can remain on the same training cycle for longer and obtain results.

I prefer them to keep their training cycles from 6 - 8 weeks. Then begin a new training cycle.
-
Advance Lifter adapt quickly That means need to change their training cycle more often; about every 3 - 4 weeks.

if you stall at a particular weight for more than two weeks

Stalling Or Going Backwards

This is a neon sign that means you need to start a new training cycle.

That means dramatically dropping the load down and starting over.

Doing so allows for...

Active Recovery

This allows for Supercompensation; increasing strength and/or size, dependent of how your training program was written and executed.

The lighter load in the new training cycle promote recovery; increasing blood flow to the muscle, delivering nutrient for repair and eliminating metabolic waste (taking out the garbage).

Also, am I correct in understanding that the 3 exercises should be cycled together and not on their own? How do you navigate this if you hit a wall with one of them early?

Learning Curve

This is part of the learning curve for everyone that come from practical experience; even for Einstein.

As he stated, "Research (learning) is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing."

Car Analogy

When driving and a light turns red ahead of you...

1) When do you start putting on the brakes?

2) How much pressure do you apply to the brakes?

Those answer come from practical experience; just doing it a lot.

How do you choose the right starting weight for this program?

It is better to choose a starting weight that is too low than too heavy.
 
Last edited:
Edit: i cant seem to get the link working.

messes up the url somehow to this.

Code:
a web site.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=224675
 
Last edited:
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom