Fat burn "biology" of KB ballistics

Sean M

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Forgive me if this is the wrong section.

I'm a curious guy and like to know how things "work".

How exactly does fat burn occur in "alactic effort + aerobic recovery" (e.g. S&S swings) protocols?

Online I find confusing and seemingly conflicting information about exercise for fat loss. Some say you can't lose fat by exercising at all (e.g. it is 90% diet). Others say you burn long-term the opposite of what you burn in the workout - so this camp is all about glycolotic (intense, "metcon") complexes that drain your liver and muscle glycogen (sugar) stores, then burns fat in the 18-24 hours following. Still others say (and I hope I'm understanding Maffetone right) that you need to stay aerobic and don't go into anaerobic (gasping for breath), which seems to be the opposite of the "metcon" approach.

What exactly is happening energy-wise in a 10 x 10 KB swing protocol with maximal effort and aerobic recovery (starting again when passing the "talk test"), both during and after the exercise, and how does it promote fat loss "bio-mechanically"?

I've dropped a pants size or two with S&S (first "notch" on the belt/pants size reduction took longer than the second phase, which corresponded to dietary changes and heavier weight swings), so I know it works - I want to know how.
 

mprevost

More than 500 posts
Let's see if I can condense a 2 hour lecture into a simple post.

In general, the higher the exercise intensity, the greater the reliance on carbohydrates vs fat. in other words, you burn a greater % of calories from fat during low intensity exercise vs high intensity exercise.

The image above shows the fuel crossover effect as exercise intensity increases. So....high intensity exercise burns almost entirely carbohydrates.

However, high intensity exercise results in an elevated rate of caloric expenditure following cessation of the exercise. This is called Excess Post Exercise Oxygen Consumption (EPOC).

EPOC is the blue area above. Energy expenditure (metabolic rate) slowly returns to normal. EPOC can have a long tail that lasts for a couple of days after strenuous exercise. Some studies have shown elevated metabolism for up to 2 days following strenuous barbell training.

Finally, high intensity exercise, in addition to producing EPOC, can shift fuel utilization toward fat. Below is a graph from a study looking at fat utilization during EPOC after strenuous exercise.

Notice the increase in fat oxidation in the RE Day part of graph B. This is fat oxidation rate after resistance exercise, compared to the control day with no exercise.

So, while high intensity exercise burns almost entirely carbohydrates, it can produce EPOC and shift the body to a fat burning mode, for up to 2 days in some cases. Hope this helps.
 

Sean M

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Let's see if I can condense a 2 hour lecture into a simple post.

In general, the higher the exercise intensity, the greater the reliance on carbohydrates vs fat. in other words, you burn a greater % of calories from fat during low intensity exercise vs high intensity exercise.

The image above shows the fuel crossover effect as exercise intensity increases. So....high intensity exercise burns almost entirely carbohydrates.

However, high intensity exercise results in an elevated rate of caloric expenditure following cessation of the exercise. This is called Excess Post Exercise Oxygen Consumption (EPOC).

EPOC is the blue area above. Energy expenditure (metabolic rate) slowly returns to normal. EPOC can have a long tail that lasts for a couple of days after strenuous exercise. Some studies have shown elevated metabolism for up to 2 days following strenuous barbell training.

Finally, high intensity exercise, in addition to producing EPOC, can shift fuel utilization toward fat. Below is a graph from a study looking at fat utilization during EPOC after strenuous exercise.

Notice the increase in fat oxidation in the RE Day part of graph B. This is fat oxidation rate after resistance exercise, compared to the control day with no exercise.

So, while high intensity exercise burns almost entirely carbohydrates, it can produce EPOC and shift the body to a fat burning mode, for up to 2 days in some cases. Hope this helps.
Thanks. Is 10 x 10 swings with "talk test" rest between sets considered "high intensity" exercise? My HR gets boosted after every set, so my last 1-2 sets of 10 I'm starting out higher than I ended sets 1-3. However, I don't get sore the next day (e.g. "lactic acid" which is what I do feel if I do something truly high intensity like spring/walk intervals).
 

mprevost

More than 500 posts
I would not expect a bit EPOC response or a big shift in lipolysis from that particular protocol. However, I would expect a protocol like that to burn more fat during the exercise and during the rest between sets so it is a trade off. I have the equipment to measure all of this. Maybe I'll give it a go.
 

mprevost

More than 500 posts
Sean M

Can you give me more specifics on the 10 X 10 swing protocol? Is there a specific protocol? Thanks.
 

Sean M

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Sean M

Can you give me more specifics on the 10 X 10 swing protocol? Is there a specific protocol? Thanks.
Simple & Sinister. 10 sets of 10 one-arm swings, done with 100% explosiveness and power. Rest is active and breathing through the nose, resuming the next set when all 10 swings can be as crisp as the first 10. The "standard" to work to is 1:1 work to rest, so 100 swings in 5 minutes assuming approx. 15 seconds for 10 swings.
 

Anna C

More than 5000 posts
Elite Certified Instructor
@mprevost If you do all this with the mask on, that would be some great insight! Would be pretty challenging to execute, though! Pictures?? ;)
 

Bro Mo

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Is it a fair analogy to look at the issue like a fire needing fuel and oxygen to burn; is the fuel burnt dependent on the oxygen used? Does one method (maffetone) create a low order detonation (slow burn) vs the other (metcon) create a high order detonation (fast burn/explosion) of sorts based on the rate and duration of oxygen consumption?
 

mprevost

More than 500 posts
Is it a fair analogy to look at the issue like a fire needing fuel and oxygen to burn; is the fuel burnt dependent on the oxygen used? Does one method (maffetone) create a low order detonation (slow burn) vs the other (metcon) create a high order detonation (fast burn/explosion) of sorts based on the rate and duration of oxygen consumption?
It is sort of like that. The fuel used is driven primarily by two things:
1. Muscle fiber recruitment. Lower intensities recruit mostly slow twitch fibers, which like to use fat for energy. High intensity recruits the big fast twitch fibers, which are packed full of glycogen (carbohydrates) and don't burn fat well, so they use carbohydrates.
2. Hormones and enzymes: At higher intensities, epinephrine is released, which would normally activate hormone sensitive lipase on the fat cell and stimulate it to release free fatty acids, however, the higher concentration of hydrogen ions produced during high intensity exercise inhibits hormone sensitive lipase. This shifts the fuel use to carbohydrates.
 

Abdul-Rasheed

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
@mprevost So with respect to fat-burning, can we say this (or are we saying this)? Low-intensity exercises has propensity to burn fat during; and high-intensity exercises after (due to EPOC). And someone with fat loss as the primary goal his training program should contain a healthy/optimum dose of both kinds of exercises?

I don't want to assume, so let me ask this too:
What is a low-intensity exercise? An example or two?
What is an high-intensity exercise? An example or two?

Thank you.
 
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mprevost

More than 500 posts
Hello Abdul

"Low-intensity exercises has propensity to burn fat during; and high-intensity exercises after (due to EPOC)."
Yes, that is correct.

"And someone with fat loss as the primary goal his training program should contain a healthy/optimum dose of both kinds of exercises?"
I believe that exercise should be used to produce fitness and diet is the place to look for fat loss. However, some studies have shown that high intensity exercise is more effective. I believe that this is probably due to other factors though (i.e., blunting the appetite, reduced inflammation, better insulin sensitivity, other undiscovered factors).

Low intensity exercise: A slow, easy paced jog. Walking at an easy pace with a loaded backpack. A long walk.
High intensity exercise: sprints, interval run, any "as many rounds as possible" or "as fast as you can" protocols, Tabata inervals, hill sprints, weight training (with little rest between sets).

A person can get really lean using any type of exercise if they can get their nutrition in order. So I would rather focus training on qualities like hypertrophy, strength, performance etc... and use diet to drop the fat.

A well known triathlon coach, Gordo Byrn, used to say about triathletes and training, "If you are training 6 hours per week and are not at your ideal body weight, you are guilty of trying to use exercise to compensate for a bad diet." I am a minimalist, so my version is, "You can't out exercise a bad diet."

Mike
 

Norcoaster

Double-Digit Post Count
Let's see if I can condense a 2 hour lecture into a simple post.

In general, the higher the exercise intensity, the greater the reliance on carbohydrates vs fat. in other words, you burn a greater % of calories from fat during low intensity exercise vs high intensity exercise.

The image above shows the fuel crossover effect as exercise intensity increases. So....high intensity exercise burns almost entirely carbohydrates.

However, high intensity exercise results in an elevated rate of caloric expenditure following cessation of the exercise. This is called Excess Post Exercise Oxygen Consumption (EPOC).

EPOC is the blue area above. Energy expenditure (metabolic rate) slowly returns to normal. EPOC can have a long tail that lasts for a couple of days after strenuous exercise. Some studies have shown elevated metabolism for up to 2 days following strenuous barbell training.

Finally, high intensity exercise, in addition to producing EPOC, can shift fuel utilization toward fat. Below is a graph from a study looking at fat utilization during EPOC after strenuous exercise.

Notice the increase in fat oxidation in the RE Day part of graph B. This is fat oxidation rate after resistance exercise, compared to the control day with no exercise.

So, while high intensity exercise burns almost entirely carbohydrates, it can produce EPOC and shift the body to a fat burning mode, for up to 2 days in some cases. Hope this helps.
Nice info, thanks - where is it from?
 

Tarzan

More than 500 posts
Is anyone aware of any studies looking at the effects of different intensity exercise for people who are on a ketogenic diet?

If there were no carbohydrates/glycogen to start with then it would be interesting to see what level of intensity burns the most fat during and after exercise.
 

Norcoaster

Double-Digit Post Count
Is anyone aware of any studies looking at the effects of different intensity exercise for people who are on a ketogenic diet?

If there were no carbohydrates/glycogen to start with then it would be interesting to see what level of intensity burns the most fat during and after exercise.
That is an interesting point - my question would be is intense exercise performance hurt in those athletes on keto diet if there are less carbs to burn. I was warned off paleo diet for that reason. For those truly following keto diet I think fat burning/weight loss is eventually not the issue - at least for me very hard to keep weight on in that diet.
 

Sean M

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
So to boil it down even simpler:

Before I start my S&S training session my liver and muscles have say 500g of glycogen ready (100 in liver, 400 in muscles). (I have read the liver can only store 100g or so, and the muscles have a finite capacity as well, and excess sugar from the diet gets "stored" as fat.)

After warming up, I do 10 sets of 10 100% explosive, powerful swings. Say one-arm so they are recruiting the most muscles (abdominal counter-rotational muscles). The 10 swings take 15 seconds, and the rest between sets is long enough where heart rate is back down to the "higher than at rest" baseline that the warmup got it up to. The 10 sets take 7-8 minutes.

Then, 10 getups - they take 1:00-1:15 to do both sides. Again, resting until breathing is normal and heart rate is back to "elevated baseline". The getups take 17-18 minutes, with say 11 minutes of that under tension.

What is the status of my energy stores at this point? Have I used up the glycogen? Have I stayed out of the glycogen zone? If so, how were the moves "powered"? And what happens for the next 12-24 hours as a result of the activity, energy utilization wise?

Great discussion so far - like I said, I love unpacking things to understand how they work. Biology and energy systems is a new frontier for me.
 

Anna C

More than 5000 posts
Elite Certified Instructor
@Sean M, I like the way you think! I hope you get some smart answers. I do not know, but I'll say what I would guess... that you've used up about half of the glycogen, the moves were powered initially by your stored PCr (only a small percentage) and then by glycogen and fat (probably fatty acids in the blood and muscles, not the "stored" fat), and for the next 12-24 hours your body is normalizing your blood sugar levels, restoring the glycogen stores, burning a bit more fat to fuel recovery biology, and processing whatever you're eating during this time to fuel all this biological activity.
 
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