Barbell Fatigue Cycling = Sustainable Strength Training

[MV144]

Pavel's true hidden gem is in beyond bodybuilding.

Pavel calls it "fatigue cycling" but , it should be called Sustainable Strength Training.

In my opinion running a "powerlifts only" cycle in that fashion is the best way to ensure you're truly getting stronger.

The Reg Park 5x5 is great, however you always start with the squats, then press and finish with the deadlift. No variation. It's strength building but only in one format. After 12 weeks, if I asked you to deadlift first then squat and then press, would you still hit the same numbers? Maybe, more likely you wouldn't.

Fatigue cycling 5x5 is awesome for linear progression on the big 3:

Week 1:

A: Squats, Press, Dead
B: Dead, Squats, Press
C: Friday Press, Deads, Squats

Same weight all 3 sessions, if you passed, next week, add weight but...

Week 2:
C
A
B

Passed? Add weight and rotate

Week 3:
B
C
A

Passed? Add weight and rotate back to Week 1. Rinse and repeat until you stop making progress then switch to 3x3.

This ensures sustainable strength gains. It's way better in my opinion.

Heavy squats after Heavy deadlift isn't fun, not even a little bit but it's going to make you stronger and more confident. You will have to rely on technique a lot more too. Also since progress is slower, you're less likely to have a "fluke day" followed by very frustrating fail days.

Anyone ever tried it?

I'm going to run it again. I have finally access to barbells (fingers crossed we won't get locked down again) and I will post a log on the forum if you're interested.

I'll be testing 1RM, 3RM and 5RM first in the first 2 weeks as well as measures and then I'll kick off.

 

[Steve Freides]

The Reg Park 5x5 is great, however you always start with the squats, then press and finish with the deadlift. No variation. It's strength building but only in one format. After 12 weeks, if I asked you to deadlift first then squat and then press, would you still hit the same numbers? Maybe, more likely you wouldn't.

Sounds interesting for general strength-and-hypertrophy purposes, I agree. I almost always lift SQ-BP-DL because that's how I have to do it in PL competitions. I've found it helpful that way, learning to deadlift when you're tired, but no need to put either of the other two last for some of us. Looking forward to hearing about your progress.

-S-

 

[Boris Bachmann]

Waving intensities and varying exercise order to 'cycle fatigue' isn't new, but so few people seem to do it.

Like Steve I'm looking forward to hearing about your progress.

 

[MV144]

Thanks guys! I'll start the log asap.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

In my opinion running a "powerlifts only" cycle in that fashion is the best way to ensure you're truly getting stronger.

Conjugate Training

Research has demonstrated that this method is one of the most effective for "Getting Stronger".

Employing different types of Strength Training (Maximum Strength, Power and Hypertrophy) into the same training program cycle elitics a...

Synergistic Effect

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Example

It's like a 2 + 2 and getting 5!

Let's look at an anecdotal proven program that has been around since the early 1980's ...

1) The Westside Powerlifting Protocol

This method involves performing three types of Strrength Training into the same program.

a) Max Effort Training

Performing Heavy Max Effort Training Movements.

b) Speed Training

Speed Training is a misnormer; it is Power Training.

c) Repetition Training

This is a Hypertrophy Training Program.

2) Dr Michael Zourdos' Conjugate Training Research

Zourdos is a Powerlifter. His research determined that the same three components of the Westside Training Protocol were the most effective at increasing Maximum Strength

Zourdos determined there was even an effective training order...

a) Monday: Hypertrophy Training

b) Wednesday: Power Training

c) Friday: Maximum Strength Training

Sandwiching Power Training between Hypertertrophy and Maxium Strength Training allowed for greater recovery for Friday's heavy training.

3) Dr. Brad Schoenfeld's Hypertrophy Training Research

Schoenfeld's research determined the same training protocol that worked for increasing Maxium Strength with the Westside Training and Zourdos finding, worked for Hypertrophy Training.

Hyperterophy Training was optimally developed with...

a) Mechanical Tension Training

This means Max Effort Strength Training.

b) Metabolic Stress Training

This means Bodybuilding/Hypertrophy Training.

c) Muscle Damage

This means at some point in a training cycle (usually the last week of the cycle), pushing top set to near failure or failure.

linear progression

Linear Periodization Training Cycles

This method is effective and been around of a long time.

It more effective for Novice Lifters. Novice Lifters adapt slower to a training program. Thus, they can make progress performing the same program for a longer time, 12 weeks or more.

Non-Linear Periodization Training

This training approch is more effective for Intermediate and Advance Liters. These lifter adapted to a new training programs much faster,

Once adaption occurs, progress stops.

Thus, Intermediate and Advance Lifer training need to be changed approximately every 3 - 6 weeks.

Rinse and repeat until you stop making progress

Periodization Training

This is the founation of Periodization Training.

Heavy squats after Heavy deadlift isn't fun, not even a little bit but it's going to make you stronger and more confident.

Exercise Order

Performing Heavy Deadlifts and then Heavy Squat is contra-indicated.

That becasue the first exercise in a program is going to reap the greatest tenefit of gains in strength.

The second exercise and exercise father back in the training order are not going to reap the same benefits.

That is the why you designed your program with the variation of those Exericse Orders in mind.

With said, lets look at some way to tweek it at it to make it even more effective.

A: Squats, Press, Dead

Squat First

Placing the Squat first ensure your are fresh and are able are able to push heavier load.

Placing the Bench Press behind the Squat, means you aren't going to have the same strength for it as you would, if the Press were first in the Exercise Order.

What you might consider is making it a Medium Heavy Bench Press Day.

Since Deadlift and Squat utilize the same muscle groups, placing it behind the Bench Press, allows for some recovery.

However, as you noted, if you place the Deadlift first, your going to pull more weight.

The counter to that is if you place it last, you are not going to be as strong; you are going to pull less.l

With that in mind, when the Deadlift is last, make it a light training day or a Power Deadlfit Trainng Day.

B: Dead, Squats, Press

Deadlift First

This is your heavy Deadlift Training Day.

To reiterate, the Deadlift and Squat utilize the same muscle groups.

That means exhausing those mucles with the Deadlift, ensure you are going use less weight in your Squat.

A secondary issue is...

Muscle Fatigue

One of the issues is as muscle fatigue sets in, Technique falls a part,

That means poor Squtting Technique will occur after fatiguing the muscle from Deadlifting.

If you're going to perform the Squat after a Deadlift, make it a light or medium training.

Since the Bench Press is last, make it a light or medium training.

C: Friday Press, Deads, Squats

Press First

This is your heavy Press Day.

While it doesn't take as much out of you as Squats or Deadlift do, it ends up taking something out of your second and third Exercises.

Deadlifting Before Squatting

The Squat is a much more Technical Lift. Technique is optimally developed when the muscle are fresh.

Muscle Fatitue ensure poor Technique is developed.

Thus, the Exercise Order is important, as well as the training load (Percentage of 1 Repetition Max).

That means if the Squat or any other movement is place farther down in the Exercise Order, the training load need to be adusted down to ensure Technique is maintained.

Steve's Suggestion

In one of his post, he suggested taking about a 20 minute break between exericise to recovery, This definitely helps.

Light Days

One of the greatest Deadlifters/Powerlifters every was Chip McCain.

McCain's program had Heavy and Light Deadlift Days.

There was a progressive loading pattern to his Heavy Deadlift Days.

McCain's Light Deadlifter Days were all over the place with his training loads.

McCain's Light Deadlift Days followed...

Auto-Regulation

McCain Light Deadlift Day Training Loads were all over the place and make no sense.

McCain Training Load on Light Days were determined by how the weight felt.

Once the load begin go feel heavy, McCain stopped Deadlifting.

The purpose of a Light Day is to incresse recovery.

Auto-Regulation is one of the fundamentals keys to training; go with how you feel.

McCain's Light Deadlift Days involved...

Active Recovery

Research shows that Light Exercises on off day increase blood flow, which promotes faster recovery.,

McCain's Light Deadlift Day forcused on increasing recovry for his Heavy Deadlift Day Training

 

[the hansenator]

@kennycro@@aol.com Could some of this work with calisthenics? Like, for example, by rotating through pushup variations of different difficulty levels?

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Could some of this work with calisthenics? Like, for example, by rotating through pushup variations of different difficulty levels?

Example

Please provide me with an example of what you have in mind.

 

[MV144]

Conjugate Training

Research has demonstrated that this method is one of the most effective for "Getting Stronger".

Employing different types of Strength Training (Maximum Strength, Power and Hypertrophy) into the same training program cycle elitics a...

Synergistic Effect

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Example

It's like a 2 + 2 and getting 5!

Let's look at an anecdotal proven program that has been around since the early 1980's ...

1) The Westside Powerlifting Protocol

This method involves performing three types of Strrength Training into the same program.

a) Max Effort Training

Performing Heavy Max Effort Training Movements.

b) Speed Training

Speed Training is a misnormer; it is Power Training.

c) Repetition Training

This is a Hypertrophy Training Program.

2) Dr Michael Zourdos' Conjugate Training Research

Zourdos is a Powerlifter. His research determined that the same three components of the Westside Training Protocol were the most effective at increasing Maximum Strength

Zourdos determined there was even an effective training order...

a) Monday: Hypertrophy Training

b) Wednesday: Power Training

c) Friday: Maximum Strength Training

Sandwiching Power Training between Hypertertrophy and Maxium Strength Training allowed for greater recovery for Friday's heavy training.

3) Dr. Brad Schoenfeld's Hypertrophy Training Research

Schoenfeld's research determined the same training protocol that worked for increasing Maxium Strength with the Westside Training and Zourdos finding, worked for Hypertrophy Training.

Hyperterophy Training was optimally developed with...

a) Mechanical Tension Training

This means Max Effort Strength Training.

b) Metabolic Stress Training

This means Bodybuilding/Hypertrophy Training.

c) Muscle Damage

This means at some point in a training cycle (usually the last week of the cycle), pushing top set to near failure or failure.



Linear Periodization Training Cycles

This method is effective and been around of a long time.

It more effective for Novice Lifters. Novice Lifters adapt slower to a training program. Thus, they can make progress performing the same program for a longer time, 12 weeks or more.

Non-Linear Periodization Training

This training approch is more effective for Intermediate and Advance Liters. These lifter adapted to a new training programs much faster,

Once adaption occurs, progress stops.

Thus, Intermediate and Advance Lifer training need to be changed approximately every 3 - 6 weeks.



Periodization Training

This is the founation of Periodization Training.



Exercise Order

Performing Heavy Deadlifts and then Heavy Squat is contra-indicated.

That becasue the first exercise in a program is going to reap the greatest tenefit of gains in strength.

The second exercise and exercise father back in the training order are not going to reap the same benefits.

That is the why you designed your program with the variation of those Exericse Orders in mind.

With said, lets look at some way to tweek it at it to make it even more effective.




Squat First

Placing the Squat first ensure your are fresh and are able are able to push heavier load.

Placing the Bench Press behind the Squat, means you aren't going to have the same strength for it as you would, if the Press were first in the Exercise Order.

What you might consider is making it a Medium Heavy Bench Press Day.

Since Deadlift and Squat utilize the same muscle groups, placing it behind the Bench Press, allows for some recovery.

However, as you noted, if you place the Deadlift first, your going to pull more weight.

The counter to that is if you place it last, you are not going to be as strong; you are going to pull less.l

With that in mind, when the Deadlift is last, make it a light training day or a Power Deadlfit Trainng Day.



Deadlift First

This is your heavy Deadlift Training Day.

To reiterate, the Deadlift and Squat utilize the same muscle groups.

That means exhausing those mucles with the Deadlift, ensure you are going use less weight in your Squat.

A secondary issue is...

Muscle Fatigue

One of the issues is as muscle fatigue sets in, Technique falls a part,

That means poor Squtting Technique will occur after fatiguing the muscle from Deadlifting.

If you're going to perform the Squat after a Deadlift, make it a light or medium training.

Since the Bench Press is last, make it a light or medium training.



Press First

This is your heavy Press Day.

While it doesn't take as much out of you as Squats or Deadlift do, it ends up taking something out of your second and third Exercises.

Deadlifting Before Squatting

The Squat is a much more Technical Lift. Technique is optimally developed when the muscle are fresh.

Muscle Fatitue ensure poor Technique is developed.

Thus, the Exercise Order is important, as well as the training load (Percentage of 1 Repetition Max).

That means if the Squat or any other movement is place farther down in the Exercise Order, the training load need to be adusted down to ensure Technique is maintained.

Steve's Suggestion

In one of his post, he suggested taking about a 20 minute break between exericise to recovery, This definitely helps.

Light Days

One of the greatest Deadlifters/Powerlifters every was Chip McCain.

McCain's program had Heavy and Light Deadlift Days.

There was a progressive loading pattern to his Heavy Deadlift Days.

McCain's Light Deadlifter Days were all over the place with his training loads.

McCain's Light Deadlift Days followed...

Auto-Regulation

McCain Light Deadlift Day Training Loads were all over the place and make no sense.

McCain Training Load on Light Days were determined by how the weight felt.

Once the load begin go feel heavy, McCain stopped Deadlifting.

The purpose of a Light Day is to incresse recovery.

Auto-Regulation is one of the fundamentals keys to training; go with how you feel.

McCain's Light Deadlift Days involved...

Active Recovery

Research shows that Light Exercises on off day increase blood flow, which promotes faster recovery.,

McCain's Light Deadlift Day forcused on increasing recovry for his Heavy Deadlift Day Training

Ok, first thank you for this long elaborate post, I appreciate you spending time to not only respond but also in such a detailed manner. Much appreciated.

Couple of points. I'm mentioning powerlifting here but simply not to have to repeat the names of the 3 lifts. I'm not talking about the sport of powerlifting. Westside as a protocol is advanced and specifically designed for the competitor. Most folks, myself included, do not possess the necessary strength to reap the rewards of a program like this. Furthermore, I'm not on PEDs, never have been so I'm keeping the natural, average lifter in mind.

In regards to the exercise order, the rotation is key to the program. If you're capable of lifting the same load regardless of the order for 3 sets of 5, you have graduated that weight and you can increase your poundage. Again this is not designed with the competitive lifter in mind.

Most people think it's crazy to do 5x5 on the deadlifts, conventional dogma says you shouldn't do the big 3 in the same workout let alone 3x a week. Tell people you want to squat after deadlift and you're going to be called an heretic. What's that based on?

Again we're not talking about guys with 600 squats, 800 Deads and 500 bench. If you're that strong, you will have to split and use advanced methods.

For the average person, a 315 squats 3x in a week for 3x5 in any exercise order will demonstrate fully acquired strength regardless of pre fatigue or other external factors. That's what I mean by sustainable.

It's also a great confidence builder knowing you own that poundage no matter what.

I did a competition once where there was the powerlifts, the olympic lifts and strongman events. It was not for pros, just a charity event but the exercises were all over the place, you had to go in random order where space was available. It was a rude awakening.

I like that template. I've done it before with the powerlifts and "never lie down to train". I enjoy it, works for me. Keep in mind once again I am not a powerlifter, just a regular guy training to get better at life.

 

[bluejeff]

@kennycro@@aol.com Could some of this work with calisthenics? Like, for example, by rotating through pushup variations of different difficulty levels?

I would be interested in input for this as well.
I can provide some examples if @the hansenator wouod like to add to them.

Heavy- OAPU, heavy dips, forward leaning push-ups (pseudo planche push-ups), heavy weighted push-ups

Medium- archer push-ups, elevated OAPU, medium weighted push-ups

Light- regular push-ups, elevated push-ups

Or even for overhead stuff:
Heavy- hspu
Medium- elevated pike push-ups
Light- floor pike push-ups

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I'm not talking about the sport of powerlifting. Westside as a protocol is advanced and specifically designed for the competitor. Most folks, myself included, do not possess the necessary strength to reap the rewards of a program like this. Furthermore, I'm not on PEDs, never have been so I'm keeping the natural, average lifter in mind.

The Same Training Principle Apply

The same training concepts apply for individual who are interested at increasing Maxium Strength as they do for Competitive Powerlifters.

That means "Most Folks" and Natural Lifter can and will benefit from the Conjugate Train Method

In regards to the exercise order, the rotation is key to the program. ...this is not designed with the competitive lifter in mind.

Exercise Order

The Rules of Exercise Order applies to everyone regardless of their Training Age; how long they have been lifting.

In plain English, that mean the same principle apply regardless if you are a to some degree for Novice Lifter as well as Advance Lifter.

Most people think it's crazy to do 5x5 on the deadlifts,

5 X 5 Deadlift Training

I am not a proponet of it, either.

As Dr. Tom McLaughlin (PhD Biomechanics) stated, the lower back is quickly and easily overtrained.

That is one of the reason many individual only Deadlift once a week heavy.

What many fail to realize is that the back is involved in a lot of exercise, espeically the Squat. As noted in previous post, the Lower Back is usually the limiting factor in a Squat.

In let's say a set of 5 Repetition, the Legs obtain a slight break after the legs are locked out and you are standing upright.

Once fatigue begins to set in, many individual will rest at the top of the Squat in the locked out position.

Any rest period between sets turns the exercise into...

Cluster Set Training

This rest period between Repetitions allow ATP Muscle Restoration Recovery. This ensures that you to preform more Repetition than you would have with non-stop, continues Repetition.

Unfortunately, the Lower Back and Core, in a Back Squat, continue to work

The Isometric Action of the Lower Back and Core

In a set of 5 Repetiton Squats, the Lower Back and Core may need to perform a 60 Second Isomtric Action to ensure you maintain an upright position in the Squat.

Isometric Action for long periods, such as 60 second or more are exteremly taxing and hard to maintain with muscle groups, especially the Lower Back. The Lower Back/Core is also engaged/worked in various standing movements during the training week.

Tell people you want to squat after deadlift and you're going to be called an heretic. What's that based on?

Reality

It based on reality.

Learning From Powerlifters

Most Powerlifter training program revolve around...

1) Heavy Deadlift Days followed by Light Squats

or...

2) Deadlift Days Only

I provided information as to why Squatting after Deadlifting is countproductive.

What you decide to do with that information is up to you.

For the average person, a 315 squats 3x in a week for 3x5 in any exercise order will demonstrate fully acquired strength

Novice Lifters

Initially, anything and everything works for Novice Lifters.

With that said, you may be able to make some initial progress and acquire strength gains

However, as they progress, adaptation occurs and progress stops.

Once adaption take place, something needs to change to ensure more strength is acquired.

I enjoy it, works for me. Keep in mind once again I am not a powerlifter, just a regular guy training to get better at life.

Glad you like it and it has worked for you.

However, the same training concepts apply for everyone.

 

[the hansenator]

Example

Please provide me with an example of what you have in mind.

I'm kind of hoping you might have some ideas that make sense. I was thinking like maybe archer pushups for a heavy day, clapping pushups for explosive day and diamond or feet elevated pushups for repetition day. Or inverted rows at various heights.

 

[MV144]

The Same Training Principle Apply

The same training concepts apply for individual who are interested at increasing Maxium Strength as they do for Competitive Powerlifters.

That means "Most Folks" and Natural Lifter can and will benefit from the Conjugate Train Method



Exercise Order

The Rules of Exercise Order applies to everyone regardless of their Training Age; how long they have been lifting.

In plain English, that mean the same principle apply regardless if you are a to some degree for Novice Lifter as well as Advance Lifter.



5 X 5 Deadlift Training

I am not a proponet of it, either.

As Dr. Tom McLaughlin (PhD Biomechanics) stated, the lower back is quickly and easily overtrained.

That is one of the reason many individual only Deadlift once a week heavy.

What many fail to realize is that the back is involved in a lot of exercise, espeically the Squat. As noted in previous post, the Lower Back is usually the limiting factor in a Squat.

In let's say a set of 5 Repetition, the Legs obtain a slight break after the legs are locked out and you are standing upright.

Once fatigue begins to set in, many individual will rest at the top of the Squat in the locked out position.

Any rest period between sets turns the exercise into...

Cluster Set Training

This rest period between Repetitions allow ATP Muscle Restoration Recovery. This ensures that you to preform more Repetition than you would have with non-stop, continues Repetition.

Unfortunately, the Lower Back and Core, in a Back Squat, continue to work

The Isometric Action of the Lower Back and Core

In a set of 5 Repetiton Squats, the Lower Back and Core may need to perform a 60 Second Isomtric Action to ensure you maintain an upright position in the Squat.

Isometric Action for long periods, such as 60 second or more are exteremly taxing and hard to maintain with muscle groups, especially the Lower Back. The Lower Back/Core is also engaged/worked in various standing movements during the training week.



Reality

It based on reality.

Learning From Powerlifters

Most Powerlifter training program revolve around...

1) Heavy Deadlift Days followed by Light Squats

or...

2) Deadlift Days Only

I provided information as to why Squatting after Deadlifting is countproductive.

What you decide to do with that information is up to you.



Novice Lifters

Initially, anything and everything works for Novice Lifters.

With that said, you may be able to make some initial progress and acquire strength gains

However, as they progress, adaptation occurs and progress stops.

Once adaption take place, something needs to change to ensure more strength is acquired.



Glad you like it and it has worked for you.

However, the same training concepts apply for everyone.

The routine I described comes from Pavel's Beyond Bodybuilding. I'm sure he'd be able to explain more in details the benefits of this system far better than I ever could.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I was thinking like maybe archer pushups for a heavy day, clapping pushups for explosive day and diamond or feet elevated pushups for repetition day. Or inverted rows at various heights.

Try it and see how it works.

 

[the hansenator]

Try it and see how it works.

I just might, or something like it.

I'm not quite up for archer pushups yet but this week I started rotating regular, feet elevated, and diamond pushups on a MWF schedule. As pushup strength improves I hope to make the regular pushups more explosive and transition from diamond pushups to archer, or weighted or some variation that's more challenging.