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Few questions (About the Deadlift)

wollff

Level 1 Valued Member
-Dead stop or paused rep is done by 4 seconds pause in bottom position on pins or on the floor (deadlift) to kill the stretch reflex which helps moving weight concentric.
Touch and go bar just touches the floor and proceeds to the next rep of the deadlift.
My questions are next:
Which do you prefere dead stop or to go or do them both, reasons and what you see as a benefit?
Is it possibile that 4 seconds eccentrics kills stretch reflex, like it is in t nation article, if so is 4/0/X/0 tempo which is in set of 5 reps 20 seconds TUT better than dead stoping 0/4/X/0 tempo for strength?
The 4-Second Rule for Muscle & Strength

-Speed sets contribute to heavy loads by traning for more muscle fiber activation in range 40% to 60% of 1 RM 8-12 sets of 1-3 reps.
How to incorporate them in workout can it be on same day as regular sets?

-Your opinion on wide stance snatch deadlift compare to other forms?
 
Do both, at different times.

A slow eccentric does kill the stretch reflex. How long? Well... Why'd you want to kill the stretch reflex? Why not? Why not do both?

I'm not sure I agree with your recipe for speed sets but in general I think it would be prudent to not do too much in a single day.
 
The only deadlift with a stretch reflex is Romanian deadlift.
I don't get the question. The barbell deadlift starts from the floor every rep.
Unless it is touch and go, which is kind of just a bad deadlift.
 
The only deadlift with a stretch reflex is Romanian deadlift.
I don't get the question. The barbell deadlift starts from the floor every rep.
Unless it is touch and go, which is kind of just a bad deadlift.
I think you're being rather harsh. I recommend you and everyone read


-S-
 
Dead stop or paused rep is done by 4 seconds pause in bottom position on pins or on the floor (deadlift) to kill the stretch reflex which helps moving weight concentric. ...Is it possibile that 4 seconds eccentrics kills stretch reflex,
Dampening or Eliminating The Stretch Reflex

Research by Wilson determined that a pause of 4 seconds plus kills the Stretch Reflex.

Fifty percent of the Stretch Reflex is lost in pausing the weight for one seconds. Source: Supertraining/Siff and Verkhoshansky

Before moving on, lets look at...

Pausing The Bar In a Competition Bench Press

The rule is that the bar must become motionless on the chest before "The Press Signal" is given

In regard to the Bench Press, the longer the pause, the less of the Stretch Reflex there is. Thus, the focus in the Competition Bench Press is to quickly drive the weight up after the "Press Signal" is given.

What Elite Bench Pressers Do

The really great one make sure they pause the bar on the chest in the first two attempts so that there is no question.

On their third attempt or on a fourth for a World Record, they anticipate "The Press Signal". Doing so allows them to employ more of the Stretch Reflex. This something they practice on their Bench Press Days.

Doug Young

Young was one of the great Benchers of his era.

At one meet, Young wearing a T-Shirt (weighing 242 lbs) took 589 lbs/267.5 kg for his third attempt. He incorrectly anticipated "The Press Signal" and was Red Lighted.

Young then took 611 bs/277.5 kg for a fourth World Record Attempt. Young correctly anticipted "The Press Signal"; getting three white lights.

Which do you prefere dead stop or to go or do them both,

Dead Stops and Touch and Go

As per...

Do both, at different times.

Each elicites a different training affect.

Think of them as a Tool in your Training Tool Box.

Determine what your Training Objective is and use the one that evokes that Training Response.

reasons and what you see as a benefit?

Benefits

1) Dead Stops


These develop Maximum Strength or Power off the floor dependent the Trainining Percentages employed.

a) Individuals who's Deadlift is slow off the floor need to perform Dead Stops with fairly heavy loads.

Sumo Deadlifters traditional have a hard time breaking the weight off the floor, as well.

One of the most effective Auxiliary Exercise for these Deadlifter is,,,,

Paused Halting Deadlifts



Anna's Halting Deadlifts (Post 130)


I've been doing the Halting deadlift just...to just above the knee... a lot of work specifically targeted for that weak point, but not a lot of "deadlift heavy" work that required a lot of recovery.

I only do full deadlifts once every 2 weeks, and yesterday it was finally time to do a set at 300. It moved much quicker off the floor and for the whole lift. It no longer feels like "off the floor" is the hardest part.

2) Touch and Go

Many Conventional Deadlifers have a strong pull off the floor.

Their Sticking Point is usually in the knee area.

The momentum of Touch and Gos allow them to OverLoad their Deadlift more in the knee area.

As a Conventional Deadlift the knee area was my Sticking Point. My Deadlift allowed the bar to drop and slightly bounce off platform, garnering greater momentum, Overloading the knee area Sticking Point.

Speed sets contribute to heavy loads by traning for more muscle fiber activation in range 40% to 60% of 1 RM 8-12 sets of 1-3 reps.

Speed Vs Power Training

With Traditional Strength Training Exercisea, here are the Training Percentage that define...

1) Speed Training

Speed Sets are a misnomer. It was inappropriated named decades ago and continues to be perpetuated.

Speed is developed with Training Pecentage that are 10 to 40% of 1 Repetition Max, with around 30% being the sweet spot. Source: The Fundamentals of Special Strength Training/Verkhoshansky.

2) Power Training

Power is developed with Training Percentages that are 46-62% of 1 Repetition Max; research Dr Daniel Baker.

The Westside Powerlifting Training Protocol

The "8-12 Sets of 1-3 Repetition" is based on the Westside Method.

I found that fewer "Power Training Set" were more effective.

How to incorporate them in workout can it be on same day as regular sets?

As per...

it would be prudent to not do too much in a single day.
 
Can you write more about speed set and how if you use them?

A discussion like this needs context.

There's a difference between a track and field athlete doing pure speed lifting combined with jumps or sprints or such, to a powerlifter doing dynamic effort or compensatory acceleration training.

Articles by Louie Simmons or Josh Bryant should get you started on the latter, if not the former as well. I'm not sure if Pavel or anyone on StrongFirst has really written about DE/CAT style training. @Steve Freides , can you think of anyone or any article?

There's plenty of material on kettlebell swings but I'm specifically talking about barbell exercises, bench and squats and deadlifts and the like, possibly combined with accommodated resistance.

In short, my personal simplified recipe would be 5-10 sets of 2-5 reps of 60-80% 1RM every minute on the minute. Bar speed shouldn't degrade substantially during training. Try out how a potentiating, heavier single set before EMOM sets changes things, for the better or worse. Try out how subtracting 10-15% load and replacing it with 10-15% band tension on top changes things.
 
-Dead stop or paused rep is done by 4 seconds pause in bottom position on pins or on the floor (deadlift) to kill the stretch reflex which helps moving weight concentric.
Touch and go bar just touches the floor and proceeds to the next rep of the deadlift.
My questions are next:
Which do you prefere dead stop or to go or do them both, reasons and what you see as a benefit?
Is it possibile that 4 seconds eccentrics kills stretch reflex, like it is in t nation article, if so is 4/0/X/0 tempo which is in set of 5 reps 20 seconds TUT better than dead stoping 0/4/X/0 tempo for strength?
The 4-Second Rule for Muscle & Strength

-Speed sets contribute to heavy loads by traning for more muscle fiber activation in range 40% to 60% of 1 RM 8-12 sets of 1-3 reps.
How to incorporate them in workout can it be on same day as regular sets?

-Your opinion on wide stance snatch deadlift compare to other forms?
For every exercise (including deadlift) I do a slow eccentric and then a pause at the lower position. I don't know if there is any additional benefits, but this is how I prefer to do it.
 
Why?

What training affect are you trying to elicit?
I train mostly for strength and athleticism.
It is just how I prefer doing my reps, nothing more.
At bench press for example I lower the barbell slowly and with control, I pause for 2'' and then I press as explosively as possible.
The same for squat. I pause for 2'' in the hole.
I do not consider it to be better(or worse), but this is how I train.
 
Steve, you know a thing or two about the deadlift. I will.
You are very kind, but there is much more that I don't know about the deadlift than what I do know. In that way I am fortunate because, as I continue to refine and improve my technique and address my weaknesses, I can hope to continue for some time to come.

I used to do a style of deadlift as most of my DL training for a long time that I learned from Marty Gallagher and have seen Ed Coan talk about in videos on YouTube - you lower the bar to the ground, but you don't let out most of the tension, rather you "kiss" the ground briefly then head back up again. The reasoning is that this helps you find and get a feeling for the groove where your pull starts with full tension and perfect-for-you alignment. It's also good, for reasons of time under tension, for hypertrophy. It's no-bounce for sure.

-S-
 
 
I train mostly for strength and athleticism.
It is just how I prefer doing my reps, nothing more.
At bench press for example I lower the barbell slowly

Fast Eccentric Bar Speed for Strength/Hypertrophy

You might consider incorporating Fast Eccentrics for increasing Maxiumum Strength.

The follow is from a previous post (Post 3) on Fast Eccentrics.


1) Short-term high- vs. low-velocity isokinetic lengthening training results in greater hypertrophy of the elbow flexors in young men


https://www.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.1152/japplphysiol.01027.2004

..higher velocity (3.66 rad/s) isokinetic lengthening contractions are associated with greater muscular hypertrophy than slower (0.35 rad/s) velocity lengthening contractions.

Summary

a) Fast Eccentric


This means lower the bar in approximately 1-2 seconds.

Performing a Faster Eccentric magnifies the weight that is on the bar; Force = Mass X Accelration.

Thus, doing so increases workload on the muscles.

Also, the Fast Eccentric predomonately works the "Super Fast" Type IIb/x and Fast Type IIa Muscle Fiber; the Muscle Fiber responsible for Maximum Strength, Power and Speed.

b) Slow Eccentric

Performing a Slow Eccentric decreases the Eccentric Force comparative to a Fast Eccentric which magnifies the loading.

Also. performing a Slow Eccentric primarily place more of the workload on the Slow Type I Endurance Fiber rather than on the Fast Twich Strength Muscle Fiber; this is noted below.

2) Fiber type-specific changes after eccentric training | Chris Beardsley on Patreon

...when slow eccentric phases are used during normal strength training, this causes increased type I muscle fiber size, ...

Research shows the slow negatives do not elicit the most effective response.

3) Slow eccentrics for growth? - Dan Ogborn


a) "...greater following high rather than slow velocity eccentric actions (29)."

b) "...as far as strength was concerned, fast eccentric actions were superior."

c) "...growth of type IIa and IIx fibres was greater with fast eccentric actions."

4) Explosive Lifting for Muscle Growth
Robbie J.Durand

" At the end of the study, the group that trained with fast eccentric contractions had the greatest increase in muscle hypertrophy. Muscle hypertrophy of the type IIB fibers (i.e. type IIB fibers are fast twitch fibers) increased from 6% to 13% in subjects. The slow group did not experience any gain in muscle mass." Source: European Journal of Applied Physiology

5) Negatives: You're Doing Them Wrong

https://www.t-nation.com/training/ne...ing-them-wrong

a) ..."going slower will not improve the stimulatory affect of the eccentric. ...it won't recruit and stimulate more fast-twitch fibers."

b) "The Essential Points: Focus on heavy and controlled, not on moderate weights lowered slowly."
 
You are very kind, but there is much more that I don't know about the deadlift than what I do know. In that way I am fortunate because, as I continue to refine and improve my technique and address my weaknesses, I can hope to continue for some time to come.

I used to do a style of deadlift as most of my DL training for a long time that I learned from Marty Gallagher and have seen Ed Coan talk about in videos on YouTube - you lower the bar to the ground, but you don't let out most of the tension, rather you "kiss" the ground briefly then head back up again. The reasoning is that this helps you find and get a feeling for the groove where your pull starts with full tension and perfect-for-you alignment. It's also good, for reasons of time under tension, for hypertrophy. It's no-bounce for sure.

-S-
To add another example, if you ever watch John Haack deadlift it is a sight to see.
His precision and zero wasted movement allows him to take advantage of the stretch reflex on the very first rep.
 
Fast Eccentric Bar Speed for Strength/Hypertrophy

You might consider incorporating Fast Eccentrics for increasing Maxiumum Strength.

The follow is from a previous post (Post 3) on Fast Eccentrics.


1) Short-term high- vs. low-velocity isokinetic lengthening training results in greater hypertrophy of the elbow flexors in young men

https://www.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.1152/japplphysiol.01027.2004

..higher velocity (3.66 rad/s) isokinetic lengthening contractions are associated with greater muscular hypertrophy than slower (0.35 rad/s) velocity lengthening contractions.

Summary

a) Fast Eccentric


This means lower the bar in approximately 1-2 seconds.

Performing a Faster Eccentric magnifies the weight that is on the bar; Force = Mass X Accelration.

Thus, doing so increases workload on the muscles.

Also, the Fast Eccentric predomonately works the "Super Fast" Type IIb/x and Fast Type IIa Muscle Fiber; the Muscle Fiber responsible for Maximum Strength, Power and Speed.

b) Slow Eccentric

Performing a Slow Eccentric decreases the Eccentric Force comparative to a Fast Eccentric which magnifies the loading.

Also. performing a Slow Eccentric primarily place more of the workload on the Slow Type I Endurance Fiber rather than on the Fast Twich Strength Muscle Fiber; this is noted below.

2) Fiber type-specific changes after eccentric training | Chris Beardsley on Patreon

...when slow eccentric phases are used during normal strength training, this causes increased type I muscle fiber size, ...

Research shows the slow negatives do not elicit the most effective response.

3) Slow eccentrics for growth? - Dan Ogborn


a) "...greater following high rather than slow velocity eccentric actions (29)."

b) "...as far as strength was concerned, fast eccentric actions were superior."

c) "...growth of type IIa and IIx fibres was greater with fast eccentric actions."

4) Explosive Lifting for Muscle Growth
Robbie J.Durand

" At the end of the study, the group that trained with fast eccentric contractions had the greatest increase in muscle hypertrophy. Muscle hypertrophy of the type IIB fibers (i.e. type IIB fibers are fast twitch fibers) increased from 6% to 13% in subjects. The slow group did not experience any gain in muscle mass." Source: European Journal of Applied Physiology

5) Negatives: You're Doing Them Wrong

https://www.t-nation.com/training/ne...ing-them-wrong

a) ..."going slower will not improve the stimulatory affect of the eccentric. ...it won't recruit and stimulate more fast-twitch fibers."

b) "The Essential Points: Focus on heavy and controlled, not on moderate weights lowered slowly."
Great information, thank you.
I always thought that it is better the eccentric part of the lift to be slow and controlled and the concentric part to be explosive.
 
Can you write more about speed set and how if you use them?
There's a difference between a track and field athlete doing pure speed lifting combined with jumps or sprints or such, to a powerlifter doing dynamic effort or compensatory acceleration training.
Speed Training Misnomer

The Westside's Dynamic Effort "Speed Training" is a misnomer that continues to be perpetuated. Post 6 define what the difference are between Speed and Power Resistance Training Percentages; based on how Exercise Science defines them.

Thus, individual who continually refer and employ the "Speed Training" Westside Training Percentates are actually "Power Training".

The issue in labeling "Power Training" as "Speed Training" is then what term and definition is used and what would the percentage for an individual who chose to focus increasing Speed?

"Pure Speed Lifting"

At least this to some extent identifies that "Speed Training" is something different from The Westside's "Speed Training" which is actually "Power Training". However, this make is even more confusing.

Maybe "Power Training" should be referred to as, Not Real Speed Training".

my personal simplified recipe would be 5-10 sets of 2-5 reps of 60-80% 1RM every minute on the minute. Bar speed shouldn't degrade substantially during training.
Bar Force Production

The determinate of the number of Repetition in Speed and/or Power Training, as you noted, is dependent on "Degregation of Force Prodution".

Dr Daniel Baker, one of he leading reserchers on Velocity Training, found a when a 20% reduction in Force Production occured in a Movement, that Set need to be stopped. It wasn't training Speed nor Power.

Baker had the equipment to measure the amount of Force Production of each Repetition.

AutoRegulation

For the rest of us, AutoRegulation needs to occur. As discusss in previous post, over time, most individual usually acquire a feeling for when to push it and when to back off.

This is also true for Speed and Power Training. In performing a Repetition Set for Speed or Power, when an individual feel their Force Proction drop, that Set needs to be terminated.

Car Speed Analogy

Think of AutoRegulation for Speed and/or Power Trainng like driving a car.

Overtime you get the feeling of the difference between driving at 50 mph/30 kilometers an hour and 30 mph/18 kilometers per hour.

With that in minds, one of the determinatate factors in Speed, Power and/or Maximum Strength Training is the..

Repetition Per Set

Research and Anecdotal Data indicates that the greatest Force Production occurs with Low Set Repetitions; 1-3 Per Set.

The Westside Protocol "Speed (Power) Training" is...

1) Squats for 2 Repetitions Per Set

2) Bench Press for 3 Repetition Per Set

3) Deadlifter for 1 Repetition Per Set.


Olympic Lifters

These are the "Poster Children" for Power.

Olympic Lifter adhear to performing Olympic Movement in the 1-2 Repetition Range.
Try out how a potentiating, heavier single set before EMOM sets changes things, for the better or worse. Try out how subtracting 10-15% load and replacing it with 10-15% band tension on top changes things.
Great Recommendation...But

This is beyond the understanding of many of the individual on this site; especially with "Potentiating".

Ironcally, some individual have some understanding about Accommondation "Band Tension Resistace Training but for some reason don't employ it; which I don't understand.
anyone on StrongFirst has really written about DE/CAT style training...

Nope

You should consider doing that!
 
The existence of heavy kettlebell swings makes me scratch my head at "touch and go deadlifts".
Heavy Kettlebell Swings, Post 19

Reseach data on this is noted the above link.
Touch And Go Deadlifts
This article in Steve's Post goes into this.
Post 6 Above

Post 6 goes into my more agressive Touch and Go Deadlifts; holding on to the bar, allowing it to drop and rebound slightly off the platform as I pull the weight back up. This method is effective, eliciting a different training reponse; which Post 6 goes into.

4 Reasons to Do the Touch-and-Go Deadlift


This article provide additional information on Touch and Go Deadlifts.

Bouncing Stiff-Leg Deadlift


The bouncing stiff-leg deadlift is a fantastic way to strengthen the posterior chain with minimal load to the knees. It'll pack lean mass onto your spinal erectors, glutes, and hamstrings.

Bounce Deadlift Demo


Dr Bret Contreras
In one article, Contreras went into...
Top Down Deadlifts
Rather than starting the Deadlift on the floor, Contreras went into placing the Bar in a Power Rack; starting from the Locked Out Postion.

The Eccentric Loading from staring from the Locked Out Postion with a Touch and Go, loading the Strectch Reflex.

This allowed for a Heavier Deadlift to be performed; an greater OverLoading of the Muscle were achieved.

Skeptical

Anything new is difficult to understand. It should be scrutinized.

This falls into the...

Three Stages of Truth

The process of acknowledging a truth is broken down into three stages:
  1. The first stage is ridicule. When a new idea or concept is brought up, it’s so strange that it’s completely absurd. People cannot fathom this idea and how it fits into their lives, so they simply laugh at how impossible it seems.
  2. The second stage is opposition. After a new concept hasn’t made it past the first stage, people begin to worry that it’s here to stay. A few might support the concept, but most will resist because they see it as a threat to everything they’re familiar with.
  3. The third stage is self-evident. There is increasing evidence that supports the idea, which goes from having a few early supporters to entering the mainstream. A majority of people support the fact and come to accept it as a given.
Many individual initially consider whatever it is as absurd and never research it and try it.

Other research and experiment with it.

Many of the Training Method that I ridiculed, I now adovate.

As in my tag line...

I guarantee it will never work if you never try it.
 
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