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Kettlebell Few weeks S&S 2, significant loss of size. Normal?

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Pocketboy

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Hi everyone,

I have been lifting for 10+ years rather consistently and mostly towards hypertrophy. But I've plateaued for the last 4 years (or so), and being more lenient with diet.

I started S&S 2.0, 5 weeks ago, but I had a 10 days holidays in between. I have lost a significant amount of size and coworkers would notice right away. I know S&S is not for hypertrophy, but losing it that quick is a bit disturbing.

There are few possible reasons for that, but I'd like your recommendations and experiences.

Will this stabilize?
Would you recommend a way to mitigate that?


Reasons:
- the max kettlebell in my gym is 20kg. I've ordered 24kg online, but still havent received it. Would jumping in kettlebell size mitigate the hypertrophy loss?

- I have also restarted intermittent fasting (not new to me) and a bit of cardio at the end of S&S session (easy 20'-25' jog at 8km/h) to burn those sprouting love handles. (I am lean but would like to loose 2kg of fat). Unfortunately, only my muscles look flat, my love handles haven't decreased.
 
- I have also restarted intermittent fasting (not new to me) and a bit of cardio at the end of S&S session (easy 20'-25' jog at 8km/h) to burn those sprouting love handles.
Hi pocketboy,

Pavel has stated that any cardio after training will limit hypertrophy.

Pavel said:
Chris, aerobic LSD is complimentary to S&S.
Here is the rule of thumb of aerobic training before or after strength training. if you are focusing on
neural adaptations, do strength work first (or the day before) when you are fresh. If you are focusing
on hypertrophy, you can lift after LSD (same or next day) and it is best to avoid LSD (except very easy
work) for 48 hours.
S&S is a program that combines various adaptations: strength, power, hypertrophy, endurance. As
such, it can go either way.
Simple & Sinister Progression Tactic | StrongFirst

Also, have you tracked your calories? IF usually results in less caloric intake. Combined with swings this might have lead to a deficit.
 
Go back to your old bodybuilding routine, but do swings with 20kg as a warm up and Get-ups with 20kg as a finisher at the end of your work out. Aim for perfect reps ……. but you really need be close to the 32kg to have any chance of S&S maintaining the muscle mass you've gained from 10 years of bodybuilding.
 
I assume most of your "losses" are due to worse body composition. 5 weeks isn't all that long to loose a lot of muscle mass if you are somewhat active.

That being said S&S is definitely not a substitute for a dedicated bodybuilding routine. Especially if you are still using lighter weights. Maybe it's better for you to alternate S&S with bodybuilding workouts? Some high volume chins and dips 2-3 days a week might be enough to keep your inner BBer happy.

I started doing S&S when I was really out of shape. Close to 300 lbs (I am 6'4'' so it was not as crazy as it sounds), couldn't run for a single minute without stopping or do more than 1-2 push ups. Even so it only took me 9 months to nail the simple standard (32kg) without killing myself and all while dieting down to 220 lbs or so. Yeah, I built some strength and managed to do 4-5 pull ups without training them. But I still looked like a normal, somewhat chubby dude and had to work up to some decent numbers in the barbell lifts to start to look like I lift.

For a guy like you who has trained for aesthetics for years on end a bare bones KB program like S&S might require a shift in expectations even if you work up to heavier KBs.
 
you really need be close to the 32kg to have any chance of S&S maintaining the muscle mass you've gained from 10 years of bodybuilding.

I would agree with this.

5 weeks isn't all that long to loose a lot of muscle mass if you are somewhat active.

But I also agree with that.

What is your goal? What would you like to look and feel like?
 
Hi everyone, thank you for your answers.

My goals is to be able to improve my overall strength (I have never been as strong as I looked) , maintain an athletic physique, and learn how to better train my body as a single unit. I am also seduced by the simplicity and minimalism of it.

I should receive 24kg kettlebell coming up soon and aim to progress towards 32kg. Pass the Simple Timeless and move to Quick and Death.

Even if I had more than a decade of bodybuilding experience, I am pretty sure that these 24kg will be challenging for some time. And if graduate to 32kg and then pass the Simple test. This represent a tremendous increase in strength and power from where I am now. I hope it can then benefit in my lifting,should I want to return to a more bodybuilding type of training later.
 
Add in some farmers walks. They hit just about everything.
 
My goals is to be able to improve my overall strength (I have never been as strong as I looked) , maintain an athletic physique, and learn how to better train my body as a single unit. I am also seduced by the simplicity and minimalism of it.

That’s awesome and your plan will deliver for those goals!

You will definitely maintain an athletic physique even if you lose some of the puff from bodybuilding.
 
@Pocketboy Also, consider this S&S + easy bodybuilding variation by @Kettlebelephant
@kb02
I have two friends on a S&S variation and because they are meatheads they are allowed to do a bit for their "show muscles" (chest+bicep).
It's S&S from Mon-Fri, on Mon+Thu we add chest at the end of the S&S session and on Tue+Fri we add bicep.
Chest is DB bench press and bicep is EZ bar curls.
1 set of 10 (use a weight which makes the 10th rep almost failure), rest for ~2min, then a rest-pause drop set like this:
Use the weight from the first set. Rep out until failure, rest 15sec, rep out to failure again, drop weight by ~25% and do another set to failure.
That's it. Takes just ~5min.

They haven't noticed size gaines, but didn't lose any size either. Keep in mind that they are training bodybuilder routine style for 5+ years. Not losing size for someone like that is a good sign that it should work for other people who usually don't train to increase size IMO.
 
@Pocketboy, S&S will not have you looking like a bodybuilder. It can, with time, give you a lean and mean look, or fighter physique. But most the people who have achieved that look have worked to 50% bodyweight or more, and have very low fat. The truth is, doing swings and get ups with 20 or 24 kg doesn't take much muscle, so S&S with those weights doesn't build much muscle. It can certainly help with losing the fat though, if you follow a good diet.

If you want to keep your bodybuilder muscles you will have to do other things on top of S&S. In the "Stickie of Stickies" you will find a thread on how to mix S&S with other programs, and in there you'll find a program done for bodybuilders that prevented them from losing size.

EDIT: The bodybuilder suggestion I was talking about is the one posted by @Bauer above.
 
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Even though S&S is not a mass builder or hypertrophy program, I also agree that you need to get up to the heavier bells to retain and/or retain mass. When doing S&S with heavier bells, I was able to retain mass, plus I was able to gain size in stubborn delts. S&S is a good program by itself, either as GPP or to prep your technique and body for other programs such as ROP or Q&D. If you want to make the fastest progress, here is my advice:

A. beginning should be about honing technique. Take advantage of the resources available, be it book, videos, online learning, or instructors. Crappy technique can lead to early plateauing or injuries. The longer crappy technique goes on, the longer it takes to unlearn.

B. When you feel you technique is solid, ramp up your volume by frequency. Take advantage of the lower weights in the beginning and try to work up to 5 or 6 days a week if your schedule allows it. This will reinforce your technique, improve your ability to recover, condition your hands, and build good mental mastery over the "wimp" voices in your head. Even if you feel like you could go 7 days a week, I'd still recommend taking 1 day off. I don't mean to offend anybody, but when you have your technique dialed in, 100 swings & 10 get-ups is not a lot of volume (until you get heavy).

C. Add heavier sets in as you feel comfortable with the volume at a given weight.

Keep rereading book. You will always seem to pick up something new that you didn't before. Set your goal to hit simple, and don't get distracted. Stay focused. From time to time you will be tempted to add in things that you think are missing, but understand that it will take away from your recovery and progress in S&S. I think its OK and probably helpful to add in some extra walking. If you try to mix programs you will just water both down. If you can wait til you hit your simple goal, your body will be in a lot better shape to take on a dedicated hypertrophy program if that's what you desire.

Good Luck!
 
Even if I had more than a decade of bodybuilding experience, I am pretty sure that these 24kg will be challenging for some time. And if graduate to 32kg and then pass the Simple test. This represent a tremendous increase in strength and power from where I am now. I hope it can then benefit in my lifting,should I want to return to a more bodybuilding type of training later.

I agree. Also, you may make faster progress than an average skinnier person because you have muscle mass available to put to the task. So, read the book carefully as far as execution and progression, and go at the pace your body dictates.

My goals is to be able to improve my overall strength (I have never been as strong as I looked) , maintain an athletic physique, and learn how to better train my body as a single unit. I am also seduced by the simplicity and minimalism of it.

I think you'll get some useful strength gains, but probably not a lot of overall absolute strength gains. A barbell strength program would be best for that. But if you feel like you're getting more useful strength, you're getting what you want.

I think you'll get the athletic physique. Diet helps a lot there.

You will DEFINITELY get the "train your body as a single unit". There is nothing better than kettlebells for that, IMO.

And it is great for simplicity and minimalism.

I would suggest some instruction from an SFG to get the most out of your training. Have you located one, or a gym near you that has some?
 
Keep rereading book. You will always seem to pick up something new that you didn't before. Set your goal to hit simple, and don't get distracted. Stay focused. From time to time you will be tempted to add in things that you think are missing, but understand that it will take away from your recovery and progress in S&S. I think its OK and probably helpful to add in some extra walking. If you try to mix programs you will just water both down. If you can wait til you hit your simple goal, your body will be in a lot better shape to take on a dedicated hypertrophy program if that's what you desire.

Good Luck!
+1, great advice.

The simple standard is a really great goal. If you are in pretty good shape it won't take you long. And if you struggle you will probably be better off once you have made it even if you loose some of the beach muscles. Goblet Squat, One Hand Swing and Turkish Get Up are well worth mastering!
 
Would you guys then say the "S&S is not hypertrophy" statement may not be as accurate when you're about 1/2bw (caloric surplus of course)? Not bodybuilder muscle but fighter etc muscle? Or perhaps 015 with a bit of variety so your biceps work when you do 1 hand swings or cleans heavy; delts with power PU, Dips, Snatch & occasional TGU; tris with all pushes?
 
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Would you guys then say the "S&S is not hypertrophy" statement may not be as accurate when you're about 1/2bw (caloric surplus of course)? Not bodybuilder muscle but fighter etc muscle? Or perhaps 015 with a bit of variety so your biceps work when you do 1 hand swings or cleans heavy; delts with power PU, Dips, Snatch & occasional TGU; tris with all pushes?

I think it just depends how your body responds. I've seen some very slender/lean men and women moving heavy kettlebells, 1/2 bodyweight or so, with power and skill, while others tend to put on more muscle with similar training. Probably genetics, hormonal response, training history... many factors. In that way it's a lot like manual labor. Some people tend to get big and strong, and others wiry and strong, with the same work.
 
I teach high school & always teach the kids the correct answer is usually "it depends." But i hate that answer when it comes to this stuff! But i know you're right.... Thanks!
 
Hi guys and gals,

First i'd like to thank you for the answer. It seems like a very responsive and helpful community. It's rare that we'd receive that many contributions.

I've noted some of the recommendations and will keep progressing towards Timeless Simple.

- I will temporarily stop the extra cardio
- I will add some extra exercise at the end of some S&S session to mitigate hypertrophy loss.

I've noted the exercise Bauer has recommended. I may try it.

But I have another , series of questions after reading Quick and Dead:
Is it best to go heavy on set of 10th to failure (as recommended by @Bauer, or is it better to lower the weight and make explosive reps ?

I'm not sure if I got Pavel's point correctly but it seems that working explosive reps would also trigger hypertrophy. He also mentioned Fast 20s is the best for hypertrophy.

In that case, from the weight that I could lift 10reps to failure, how much should I drop to get to the explosive rep? Should I look at 10 reps or 20 reps. (Could also help get ready for Q&D)

Another thing is that he mentioned that 5x5 routine could do both the strnght and hypertrophy and that the quality of the mass would be superior. Anyone knows how to implement a 5x5 around S&S?

I want to emphasize I'm not discarding anyone's recommendation. It's just that this book has completely shifted my understanding upside down of how to train for size and strength, so I'm trying to figure it out.




EDIT: today was my 2 arms swings day. 20kg is definitely too easy, but yet they are still reps I am not doing with perfect form. I hope to soon have my 24kg.
I finished my session with Chest like Bauer suggested (and two series of abs crunch fast 20s) . Tomorrow I will do biceps.
 
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In that case, from the weight that I could lift 10reps to failure, how much should I drop to get to the explosive rep? Should I look at 10 reps or 20 reps. (Could also help get ready for Q&D
Nah, don't change S&S, especially 2.0. I have come to trust Pavel.

If you come from a bodybuilding background, the right workload (no heavy days) might feel strange. But that is on purpose. As it is GPP you should not change a thing before hitting Timeless Simple.

But you are of course free to do anything you want and also to add a little here and there (as long as you recover). :)

Good luck
 
Hi Bauer, thank you for your answer.

Today I went to a gym that has a lot more kettlebell. I trained with 24kg, no problem. I've also tried 3 sets at 32kg (2-arms swings) and it wasn't too much of a problem., but it's still too heavy for 1-arm swings.
I'll wait to receive my own 24kg kettlebell, practice until I own it (I don't think it will take long), and slowly integrate the 32kg.

Yesterday, I've done the short chest "hypertrophy" exercise you've shared with me. Today I've done biceps. I can feel a bit of soreness in the chest from yesterday, but it's minor. I'll try that for a couple of weeks and assess if it's overkill or if I keep it (esp while waiting to upgrade to 32kg).
 
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