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Bodyweight Fixing Shoulders During Push-up

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nyet07

Level 2 Valued Member
Hello Everyone,

I've read Naked Warrior and watched the video. I have trouble about fixing my shoulders by "pulling shoulder blades down and back" via engaging my lats and lower trapezius. I feel I can put more emphasis on my chest that way but meanwhile I have literally winging scapula at that position and it seems abnormal from outside. I've asked couple of my friends to engage their lats and lower trapezius and they don't seem to have the same winging scapula problem that I had.

I've read that winging scapula is caused by weak serratus anterior muscle. I've seen couple exercises that is meant to fix that problem yet all of these movements advise exactly the opposite of pulling shoulder blades down and back. There is the scapula push-up in which a person moves his shoulder blades away from each other at the top of the movement.

Since my friends didn't have same winging scapula problem while they engaged their lats and lower trapezius, I think something could be wrong with my scapula anatomy. But other possibility is that I understood "putting the shoulder in its socket" analogy a bit differently and not doing it correctly.
I also have rounded shoulder problem due to sitting long hours because of work. Maybe that might be reason too.

Interesting thing is when I stand normally, my winging scapula is not really visible from outside although my shoulder blades are little bit more sticking out than usual. Real problem starts when I try to keep my shoulders "in their socket by pulling them down and back".

Can anyone help me out with winging scapula problem?
 
Band pull aparts work great as part of warmup or between sets. Do higher rep sets. Start around 50 total reps and gradually work up to 100 reps. Scap push-ups are great, try band face pulls also.

If my left shoulder blade is winged a bit band pull aparts in my warm up fix it.
 
You could be understanding the cue incorrectly. I can move my scapula around until it starts to wing a bit (it feels like it's sticking a bit). However, to do this, I need to push my shoulder somewhat forward and "feel around" until I can make the scapula pop out. Scapula retraction is a bit different. The shoulders will move noticeably back, and you'll see your upper back "coil up" if you have some muscle there.

You could film from behind, and just feel around these movements. I don't have any scapula winging problems, but the fact that I could place it in that position if I wanted to, tells me it's a possibility that someone misunderstands a cue.

That said, for Push-ups, I pack my shoulders (depression... keeping them far from the ears... anti-shrug... all mean the same things) but I do not pull them back the way The Naked Warrior recommends in order to push the chest out as though you were benching, at least not at the top. At the bottom, yeah, shoulders packed and retracted. But for the rest of the movements, they're usually neutral, if not a bit protracted.

I learned my push-ups in the context of gymnastics strength training, where the hollow body position is maintained at all times. The hollow cannot be maintained if you retract your shoulders, so these two cues go agaisnt each other. All this means is that if you continue to have issues winging... consider switching your push-ups to using a hollow body position. They will become harder and safer. Similar to how the Fighter Pull-up is a bit harder than one where the scapula is retracted. Might be worth your time. Or it might not hehe. I've seen people in gymnastics with winging problems switch their push-ups to that style (it will strengthen your serratus in no time... no joke) and it works for them.
 
@305pelusa

When I put my shoulders forward, my shoulder blades don't stick out at all. It happens when I move my shoulders back. When I move my shoulders back, there happens to be little rounding in my back and my head goes forward and with my shoulders going back, my scapula starts to stick out.

I have no problem with hollow body position but have problems with my shoulders. One thing I really liked in Naked Warrior was the idea to put more stress on chest rather than shoulder joint by placing shoulders "down and back". I didn't realize that this was putting me in an abnormal position until recently my friends warned me. There is one fact I realize though, placing shoulders down and back doesn't mean stabilizing, I think stabilizing is more about motor control ability. I realized that I could stabilize my shoulders without actually placing them down and back but it requires great amount of mental effort.

I can raise my arms forward in a natural way and lock my scapula by engaging my scapular muscles with a mental effort, or I can also raise my arms forward in the same way but then bring my shoulders down and back and put my body in an abnormal position. I asked my friends to do the same thing, their body responded differently. It is completely correct that everybody is different.

Only thing I want to point out is that stabilizing the scapula and shoulders definitely is not the same thing as putting shoulders down and back. I completely agree that "down and back" approach put more stress on the chest and reduces the stress on shoulder joint, but it might accomplish that in the expense of a proper body alignment.
 
By the way, I found couple videos that suggest shoulder stabilization is done via motor control of muscles as much as muscle presence surrounding shoulders.
Here is the link to the video that talks about motor controls, examples are very interesting,


There is another video that teaches how to stabilize shoulders during movement,

In this video, in third movement, which is push-up towards a wall, instructor tells client to turn his elbows inwards, towards the body. I tried and realized that it really helps one to stabilize his shoulder joints by engaging lats and mid back muscles. Inwards force also reminds me rotator cuff muscles too.

I think it is much more natural way of stabilizing shoulders than moving shoulders "down and back".

What do you think? I can show pictures how "down and back" approach might cause abnormal appearance.
 
nyet07 said:
@305pelusa
Only thing I want to point out is that stabilizing the scapula and shoulders definitely is not the same thing as putting shoulders down and back. I completely agree that "down and back" approach put more stress on the chest and reduces the stress on shoulder joint, but it might accomplish that in the expense of a proper body alignment.
Click to expand...

No, those things are obviously not the same thing. Stabilizing the scapula is a rather vague term, but it just refers to "locking" the scapula in a position such that there's no unwanted movement. This can be accomplished in a ton of ways. During benching, you pull your shoulders down and back and set the scapula agaisnt the bench so it is physically locked in place. During gymnastic hollow body exercises, the shoulders are protracted fully and locked into that front position. This is also the position of the Fighter Pull-up. During Handstands, you stabilize the scapula by shrugging your shoulders and keeping the scapula strongly upwardly rotated. During KB presses, you keep the shoulder strongly depressed (away from the ear) to get the shoulder as "compact" as possible, and keep any moving around to a minimum.

Pavel recommends packing the shoulder, and even a slight amount of retraction during OAPUs as a method of stabilizing the scapula. If the scapula are pinched together, then they can't move backwards anymore can they? This provides a level of stabilization similar to benching. And if you do OAPUs for an appreciable amount of time, you'll notice that some reps at the end of the set will slow down to grinds... but that somehow magically keeping the chest popped out allows you to keep inching upwards almost effortlessly. Some others who have done OAPUs for some time will probably have felt a similar feeling.

If winging is a problem, keeping the shoulders packed and retracted isn't going to fix it (...because we already agreed they're different things altogether) as that's not going to magically stabilize your scapula. Instead, as I already mentioned before, you should work in plenty of push-ups with a hollow body stance, or at least neutral shoulders, with a focus on not letting the scapula wing. If it doesn't wing, then you're doing the reps correctly. You do not need to overthink this.
 
305pelusa said:
If winging is a problem, keeping the shoulders packed and retracted isn't going to fix it (...because we already agreed they're different things altogether) as that's not going to magically stabilize your scapula. Instead, as I already mentioned before, you should work in plenty of push-ups with a hollow body stance, or at least neutral shoulders, with a focus on not letting the scapula wing. If it doesn't wing, then you're doing the reps correctly. You do not need to overthink this.
Click to expand...

I just wanna save my shoulders, that's it.
 
I've had a shoulder problem or two in my day and was confused by the "down and back" advice. It turns out the shoulder blades can move forward and back but the scapula should hug the rib cage the whole time. Moving them "down and back" won't necessarily keep them on the rib cage if you have something else going. I could move my shoulder in any direction and be whinging the whole time. I found a good physical therapist and he was able to help.
 
the hansenator said:
I've had a shoulder problem or two in my day and was confused by the "down and back" advice. It turns out the shoulder blades can move forward and back but the scapula should hug the rib cage the whole time. Moving them "down and back" won't necessarily keep them on the rib cage if you have something else going. I could move my shoulder in any direction and be whinging the whole time. I found a good physical therapist and he was able to help.
Click to expand...
You may basically have a really irritated shoulder, which (in most cases) means that any sort of approximation or protraction movement could get it angrier, even if it is a closed-chain movement like the push-up that is usually pretty shoulder-friendly. Likewise, if you have a major acromioclavicular joint injury, the extension range-of-motion at the bottom of a push-up could make worse your symptoms. So, obviously, the first step is to rule out if something is structurally wrong with your shoulder, and if so, if the push-up even belongs in your strength training program.
 
@Elise Stevenson, Thanks for the response.

In my case, I'm pretty sure the shoulder issue comes from a surgery I had long ago. There's a six inch incision going under the left pec and stopping under the armpit. I know at least one nerve has been cut because the left side of my diaphragm is paralyzed and I'm pretty sure it's affecting the muscles in the armpit area. I think the serratus. Anyway, I've recently learned to use the serratus during getups and it makes a big difference. That muscle actually worked hard enough to get sore last week. Not the lats but a little forward where the ribs are. It's like discovering a new muscle and I think it's the missing piece to the puzzle.
 
nyet07 said:
Hello Everyone,

I've read Naked Warrior and watched the video. I have trouble about fixing my shoulders by "pulling shoulder blades down and back" via engaging my lats and lower trapezius. I feel I can put more emphasis on my chest that way but meanwhile I have literally winging scapula at that position and it seems abnormal from outside. I've asked couple of my friends to engage their lats and lower trapezius and they don't seem to have the same winging scapula problem that I had.

I've read that winging scapula is caused by weak serratus anterior muscle. I've seen couple exercises that is meant to fix that problem yet all of these movements advise exactly the opposite of pulling shoulder blades down and back. There is the scapula push-up in which a person moves his shoulder blades away from each other at the top of the movement.

Since my friends didn't have same winging scapula problem while they engaged their lats and lower trapezius, I think something could be wrong with my scapula anatomy. But other possibility is that I understood "putting the shoulder in its socket" analogy a bit differently and not doing it correctly.
I also have rounded shoulder problem due to sitting long hours because of work. Maybe that might be reason too.

Interesting thing is when I stand normally, my winging scapula is not really visible from outside although my shoulder blades are little bit more sticking out than usual. Real problem starts when I try to keep my shoulders "in their socket by pulling them down and back".

Can anyone help me out with winging scapula problem?
Click to expand...
Can you send me a video of your pushup?
 
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