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Kettlebell Float height for maximum kettlebell swing strength training

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This doesn't ruffle my feathers.



I don't find this discussion divisive, and I hope most of you don't as well.

Alec Enkiri - the title is provocative but what he does seems fine to me. What Rif does also seems fine to me.

Let's make a difference between people doing heavy swings by choice and what we recommend for most people, most of the time - those are necessarily different things. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that. There isn't only one way to swing a kettlebell any more than there's only one way to use a barbell. Choose the right tool, and the right application of that tool, for the job at hand. For general strength and conditioning, kettlebell swings with a moderate weight for sets of 5-10 and volumes of around 100 per day. For more experienced athletes with a specific purpose or desire, swinging heavy is a fine choice that doesn't negate or make "wrong" the way we recommend most people perform the swing most of the time.

-S-
Very well said! Yes!
 
I don't think the max weight issue is really relevant to a GPP trainee, if we consider your example of 90 kg power snatch. That's less than two 48 kg kettlebells - and someone who could do that would likely need considerably less weight in a double kettlebell clean with no knee dip. And it's not like kettlebells heavier than 48 don't exist.

Unless you're a GS athlete, why bother with the 2 x 48 kg power snatch at all if you're already power snatching 90 kg on a barbell?

KBs are capital inefficient for scaling vs a plate loaded barbell + plates. Buying 6 kg in change plates to go from 90 kg to 96 kg costs a lot less than 2 x 48 KBs.

Also, I thought we were discussing KB swings not KB snatches.
 
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@watchnerd
Is 5 reps in the "low rep" or "high rep" bracket?
Or do you mean total reps, e.g. 10 to 20 versus several hundred?

I'm specifically thinking of KB-SF swing protocol which can be in the 50 to 300 total rep range. But the sets are 5 reps.

For me, 5 continuous reps (in a set) is too high if I'm trying to train max power.

If I can do 5 reps, it's not heavy enough to force me to use max power output.

When I do double KB training in the off season, if I'm trying to max power with double KB swings, I do sets of 3.

If I do sets of 5 or higher, it feels more like conditioning / power-endurance to me and is lower weight.

Max power for me means I'm using RPE 8-10.
 
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For me, 5 continuous reps (in a set) is too high if I'm trying to train max power.

If I can do 5 reps, it's not heavy enough to force me to use max power output.

When I do double KB training in the off season, if I'm trying to max power with double KB swings, I do sets of 3.

If I do sets of 5 or higher, it feels more like conditioning / power-endurance to me and is lower weight.

Max power for me means I'm using RPE 8-10.
Okay, that makes sense. I am following the KB-SF programme as strength endurance with the benefit of improved power.

The original question was in refering to strength rather than power.

I'm planning on buying an Olympic bar and plates next month. Where would you point me to first on learning some Olympic basics please?
 
If I want to get a big stretch on the posterior chain, I do Romanian Deadlifts.

Swings are neat for hamstring pumps, but I've always gotten even more results from RDLs.

And I can go much, much heavier, and the movement pattern (vertical) translates better to SN / C&J.
I mean, yeah, I think super-heavy swings are pretty low priority for a dedicated Olympic lifter. Thrower? Sprinter? Triple-jumper/long-jumper? Dunno. But it's not like it's a huge investment to put together a $20 t-handle.

["This guy wears running shoes, but he's ripped, and also strong and explosive"]
Res ipsa loquitur
 
I'm planning on buying an Olympic bar and plates next month. Where would you point me to first on learning some Olympic basics please?

I would try to find a local coach as a first option -- I was fortunate enough to learn in person from Jim Schmitz, who was Team USA coach for the 1980, 1988, and 1992 olympics.

But if in person isn't an option, I've heard good things from newbie friends about Sonny Webster's "Learn to Lift" program:

 
I would try to find a local coach as a first option -- I was fortunate enough to learn in person from Jim Schmitz, who was Team USA coach for the 1980, 1988, and 1992 olympics.

But if in person isn't an option, I've heard good things from newbie friends about Sonny Webster's "Learn to Lift" program:


Thanks. I've found a coach 10 miles down the road so I'll check it out.
It's amazing what is out there hidden under your nose...
 
Okay, that makes sense. I am following the KB-SF programme as strength endurance with the benefit of improved power.

The original question was in refering to strength rather than power.

I'm planning on buying an Olympic bar and plates next month. Where would you point me to first on learning some Olympic basics please?
I know very little about Olympic lifting, but if you’re like me and want some of the benefits of the lifts without spending too much focus on learning the techniques, I can recommend the program I’m currently doing. Uses high pulls, hang snatches, snatch grip deadlifts, and various pushes all designed for helping improve/express power without the need for learning the actual Olympic lifts.


I have only been doing it for about a month, and I added in about 500 additional calories a day, but have not gained any weight and have lost about .75” off my waist. Recovery has been very easy even though it’s daily practice, and overall I feel really good.
 
I don't think swings could be of much use for that kind of programming due to their lack of clear failure criteria, but cleans, snatches and jerks likely would.
When I do swings, "failure" is not reaching shoulder height. Both one and two arm swings. Nothing scientific behind my definition of a complete swing. It's just the height I decided was "necessary" for me to feel like it was a complete swing.
 
Just to ruffle some feathers:


I don't think this will ruffle many feathers. Rif is very well respected and it is a heavy swing. When I see videos with the same swing height as in his video, I understand that it is probably SAFER to not try to swing it higher. But it's not what I personally would do.
 
I don't think this will ruffle many feathers. Rif is very well respected and it is a heavy swing. When I see videos with the same swing height as in his video, I understand that it is probably SAFER to not try to swing it higher. But it's not what I personally would do.
I’m fine with it and understand just fine, I just thought it was appropriate to add precisely because he IS so respected and some people were complaining about swing height.
 
Thrower? Sprinter? Triple-jumper/long-jumper?

Posterior Chain

The majority of force for Throwers, Spinters, Triple-Jumper, Long Jumpers, etc is produce by the Posterior Chain.

Exercises that develop the Posterior Chain are essential for the sports above.

Power Kettlebell Swings Post 5

The research data provided above post demonstrates that Heavier Kettlebell Swing enable greater Power Development in the Posterior Chain for Throwers, Spinters, Triple-Jumper,Long Jumpers and athletes in sports of the same nature.

Olympic Lifters and Shot Putters

The Power Output of Shot Putters rivals the Power Output of Olympic LIfters.
 
I know very little about Olympic lifting, but if you’re like me and want some of the benefits of the lifts without spending too much focus on learning the techniques, I can recommend the program I’m currently doing. Uses high pulls, hang snatches, snatch grip deadlifts, and various pushes all designed for helping improve/express power without the need for learning the actual Olympic lifts.


I have only been doing it for about a month, and I added in about 500 additional calories a day, but have not gained any weight and have lost about .75” off my waist. Recovery has been very easy even though it’s daily practice, and overall I feel really good.
Awesome, thanks for sharing @BJJ Shawn
 
Uses high pulls, hang snatches, snatch grip deadlifts, and various pushes all designed for helping improve/express power

This is the kind of stuff I program heavily in my preparatory phase, from about 24-12 weeks out from a meet.

Plus a never ending pile of technique and mobility work.
 
Unless you're a GS athlete, why bother with the 2 x 48 kg power snatch at all if you're already power snatching 90 kg on a barbell?
Flipping it around: unless you are a weightlifter, why bother with the barbell power snatch at all when you already can hardstyle snatch two kettlebells? Why bother with barbells at all if you already have the kettlebells?
KBs are capital inefficient for scaling vs a plate loaded barbell + plates. Buying 6 kg in change plates to go from 90 kg to 96 kg costs a lot less than 2 x 48 KBs.
That's a fair point. However, if you already are invested in kettlebells, it's considerably less (you may already own at least one 48 kg for presses, for example); even less if not nil if you accept a slight discrepancy between bells (for example, 48 kg+44 kg).

Another thing to consider is that the purchase price is not the only cost associated with either implement. Even if I threw away all my kettlebells it wouldn't be easy to even store a barbell and plates in my apartment, not to mention train with it safely and without the neighbors calling the police. Sure, I could solve all these issues somehow - but the (continuing!) effort wouldn't be justified by the savings.

I think the disagreement lies primarily in a perspective, and specifically, what we view as a starting point. For you, a weightlifter, access to barbells and the ability to perform the Olympic lifts and their variations is a given, while heavy kettlebell ballistics are an addition to be scrutinized. My perspective is the opposite: I see kettlebells as given, while barbells and Olympic lifts as an addition that would need to justify investing time and resources - and fails to do so. I also think that for most people the latter reasoning should be applied.
Also, I thought we were discussing KB swings not KB snatches.
You replied to my post suggesting low rep, high power training with KB cleans, snatches and jerks, saying that you don't understand why anyone would use kettlebells like that and asserting that the barbell is the right tool for this job. My response was about challenging this argument, I haven't mentioned swings at all.

A minor correction: I've noticed that at some point I've switched my example from cleans to snatches, but it doesn't really impact my argument.
 
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My reasoning with the debate about power and strength in barbell to that of ballistic kb training ...
And in turn how they relate to me from a sprinter perspective...or for that a runner or any sport which involves running and anaerobic/aerobic endurance...

Accepting the view that to raise limit strength allows for greater power development, how and why that power is used is then the issue. If you don't need endurance in any part of the spectrum then working on limit strength is the thing.

If you need speed endurance, any and all ranges of anaerobic and aerobic performance then you need to do that.

If you train limit strength, move to develop power in a cycle which will require metabolic adaptations then limit strength will decrease over that cycle.

That's what ballistics do...a broad range of muscular and metabolic adaptations over time at the same time.

Float height is a visual guide to power production, so consistent height shows consistent power production. Not only is it a guide it actually is the law.
Banded bells change the energy conservation equations placing greater emphasis on elastic tissue.
And in general, bodyweight and body shape and training state will provide a range of sweet spots, for you.
I don't own a 26kg bell, so a 24 or 32 is just fine.
 
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