all posts post new thread

Kettlebell For those who run...

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

GreeneMachine

Level 4 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
How do you incorporate running and kettlebell training into your week?
What KB programs do you find complementary?
How many days of the week do you run/kettlebell train?
How many rest days do you take during the week?

I've mostly been doing exclusively KBs and mixed with some rope skipping, but I've signed up for some 5, 10, and 21ks in 2022, and I'm looking at how to balance training priorities (which are to maintain overall strength and increase running capacity).
 
How do you incorporate running and kettlebell training into your week?
What KB programs do you find complementary?
How many days of the week do you run/kettlebell train?
How many rest days do you take during the week?

I've mostly been doing exclusively KBs and mixed with some rope skipping, but I've signed up for some 5, 10, and 21ks in 2022, and I'm looking at how to balance training priorities (which are to maintain overall strength and increase running capacity).
I've done it three ways - alternating days, run after ballistics, and running / lifting together on two-a-days.

The latter is hard to sustain simply from time requirements. I don't often have time for two-a-days, and if I do one session has to be super short or is often interrupted.

I think my favorite, when time allows, is to do ballistics for 10-20 minutes and then go for easy run for the remainder of the hour. Maybe that is suboptimal but I enjoyed it.

Often I found I'd autoregulate rest days - either I would feel run down and like I needed a break (so I took one) or due to scheduling issues I'd "miss" a day.

The most sustainable way I've done is just alternating kettlebell and running sessions. This gives each one "equal" amounts of training days in a week - usually 3/3.

I've also done it strength-ballistics-aerobic in a 3 day block and just repeat that block as often as often as possible - maybe I'd string 6 days of training in a row without a break, sometimes that 3 day block got spread out over a whole week. I didn't like the frequency, but it allowed me to get two solid strength days, two long A&A days, and two aerobic runs in a week.

I've also done a strength-aerobic-ballistics-aerobic 4 day block that could be repeated as often as possible, or get spread out across an entire week. This prioritizes aerobic time (3-4 x/week), but again, frequency of strength/ballistics wasn't my favorite (1-2 x/week).

I've also done an aerobic-weights-aerobic-weights-aerobic block. This prioritizes aerobic time, and two weight days could easily be enough. Sometimes I'd modify this as a sprints-weights-aerobic-weights-aerobic-aerobic.

Its all about managing priorities and what and how much you want to include, not to mention time constraints and how well you can recover. Two-a-days run me down quick, and even if I had the time it became really hard to do. There were a lot of trade-offs I'd have to start working around just to let me recover.
 
I did S&S and ran 3x per week during summer 2020.. I was doing near daily SS and a lot of doubles. SS in the morning and running in the evening. That kind of stuff.

It slowed down my progress on SS, but I never felt broken down or significantly fatigued. Just keep the running more like jogging and you should be able to build a decent running base.

It goes without saying that the more energy you expend on running, the less you will have for strength training.
 
I do as much as I can, as often as I can.

If you need more specifics..... Almost all of my running is aerobic, and what little isn't is done with as much intensity as as possible. A loooot of easy and an itty,bitty, bit of intensity. I do run a few races that I give all I have, which ain't much, but it's what I have.

Strength is similar to All-Around Training for the Tactical Athlete | StrongFirst

If I have time , I often run after Strength. I almost always include Pull-ups,because I like them, and once a week (usually Wednesday) I include step ups. I often do 2 a days, and I do something 7 days a week. Sundays are for long runs.

Keep in mind, my priorities are;

1)Health
And
2)Long Bi-Pedal movement.

And I am a 55 yo man that works at a physical job.
 
I don’t run all that much anymore (although I’m working on a comeback) but a few years back I was doing S&S 5-6 days / week and trail running 4 days / week with the ’long’ run close to 90+ min. No S&S on the long run days.

And the more energy you expend upon strength training, the less you will have for running….:cool:
 
I've been doing S&S Mon, Wed, Fri and running on Tue, Thu and Sun. Recently, due to time restrictions I've not been doing Thu, but I also go for 30min walks most days so feel that is still good enough for my cardio fitness.
 
Monday, Wed, Fri: kettlebell. Tues, Thurs: easy run. Sat a heavy but short ruck, typically on a mountain by my house.

I typically alternate 6 week cycles of Quick and Dead, with 6 weeks of Alactic and aerobic. In Q&d I follow Pavel’s article recommendation of how to include deadlifts Q&D + Minimalist Deadlifts | StrongFirst and after those I do 2-3 Turkish get ups with 40kg (my S&S weight) on the 40 and 60 rep days. I found if I skipped tgus that I would lose strength in them over time. It adds a few minutes but I am able to notice improved strength in both push ups and tgus.

A+A i usually do an A/B split schedule where A is (double) clean and jerks 1-3 at a time and B days are either double snatches or a single chain of clean, press, squat, snatch. I work my way up to 100 reps (on jerks and snatches, in the chain, I would go up to an hour, so only 60 reps) and then move up in weight. So one week is A, B, A and the next week is B, A, B.

The running I keep easy 30-60 minutes, occasional strides but no structured speed work. Some cycles I will replace a run with a kettlebell mile, The Kettlebell Mile | StrongFirst, either way I still see improvement in strength and cardio. I ruck on Saturday for the army, but that could be a long run for you if you don’t want to ruck.

I have done some version of this for most of the year and found steady progress without any real disadvantages for me.
 
I want to incorporate more running into the mix and my plan is to do it the way @Nathan C. Barnes and @John K describe it.

2-3x per week A+A or Strength Aerobics style training (following the Adcanced or Intermediate plans from SF-KB from BJJ fanatics- either Swings + GUs or LCCJs)
2-3x per week easy running, one being longer. Aiming for 3 of both.

Later on I might prioritize running for 6-8 weeks, and then switch to maintenance with only 1-2 runs per week (while doing the Giant or Victorious or similar plans). That's the plan at least.
 
I'm in the middle of my annual training plan as per Joe Friel's programming:

Prep phase and off season: Zone 1 running + heavy weight training (Giant C+P or sandbag cleans and carries).
Base phase: Zones 2-4 running + moderate weight training (mix of Q&D snatches, SLDL, TGU with a press at every stage and Mace swings).
Build phase: Zones 2-5 running + light weight training (TGUs and Mace swings).

I train 7 days a week, most weeks, with variable daily training hours. I also vary total weekly training hours between a 7.5 and 12.5 hours. I train both running and strength every day.

Edit: Correction: Off season heavy weight training is only 3x per week, Z1 running every day.
 
I’d say the first question is whether you’re a runner who also strength trains, somebody who strength trains and also runs or an athlete of a different sport who happens to both strength train and run.

In the first case, there are several schools of thought, but all will prioritize running (and running drills) over strength training. Therefore, you would arrange your strength training so that it fits your running schedule (and covers predominantly prehab as well as increasing power potential). As for exercise selection, squat vs. deadlift is a debate even concerning sprinters, with well-known proponents for both the squat (e.g. Charlie Francis, Charles Poliquin, while Allan Wells used medium reps of 90° bodyweight squats in his training) and the deadlift (Barry Ross). For longer distances, the deadlift probably wins the duel since it is less likely to increase body mass. Some coaches (e.g. Joe de Franco) have also advocated Bulgarian split squats and glute ham raises. Swings have been employed by runners as far back as the 1960ies (Percy Wells Cerrutty suggested one-arm dumbbell swings along with deadlifts, cheat curls, bench presses and incline sit-ups for his mile runners, as well as sprinting up steep sandy hills, see Percy Cerutty- The Eccentric Stotan). Speaking of more running-specific drills, apart from the so-called “running ABC”, I should also mention pulling a tire or sled (Herschel Walker) and running against the resistance of an exergenie with an extra-long rope (Charlie Francis). The longer the distance gets, the more strength training for competitive runners will take an assistance role, as weight gain is even less desirable.

If you mainly strength train and run on the side, you can make your own priorities as you see fit. In this case, you’ll probably not want to strength train right after running, though, unless maybe you just did hill sprints that day.

If you are an athlete of a different sport, you’ll want to arrange both your running and strength training so that they don’t interfere with your specific training sessions (how much additional work you can handle which will depend on your ability to recover and the intensity of your practice sessions; some schools limit strength work to the off-season). In combat sports, it is customary to run in the early morning (followed by a circuit in some schools) so that you have maximum recovery time between your running and technique work/sparring – a good idea if you train daily. If additional strength work is done, it is usually done after practice – either right afterwards or in a separate session in the evening. A different approach is to run after practice, which is usually done when preparing for a match or if someone can't run in the morning for whatever reason. Some schools also schedule a longer, harder run (up to one hour, preferably uphill, followed by hill sprinting and circuit training in some cases) on the weekend, while the morning runs are kept short (20-30 minutes) and easy.
 
I have always had a love / hate relationship with running, mainly hate. However it was a necessary part of my training during my 30 year police career. These days I do it because, as much as I hate it, I still believe it is a necessary fitness component.

As I mentioned in a previous thread, I find programs difficult to stick to and so prefer to have a flexible training template that I stick to.

The template that I mainly work to is based on one I learned from Tom Furman, a member of this forum And is called The Isaac Hayes Template.

My version is :
Day 1- Kettlebells and or Weighted Calisthenics.
Day 2 - Boxing Training.
Day 3 - Run and Bodyweight Calisthenics.

Depending on life this might be Days 1,2 & 3 consecutively and then repeat followed by a rest day. Or it might be Days 1,2 & 3, Rest day and repeat. Or if life really gets in the way a rest day between each training day.

This basic format keeps me ticking over, not really excelling in any one area but keeps me ready for transitioning to more specific goals should they arise. However you can adjust it to emphasise any specific area of skill/fitness you want to develop.
 
I have always had a love / hate relationship with running, mainly hate. However it was a necessary part of my training during my 30 year police career. These days I do it because, as much as I hate it, I still believe it is a necessary fitness component.
Charles Poliquin once said that of all the different athletes he trained, only the runners claimed they liked running, and he strongly maintained they were lying through their teeth ;)
 
I really struggle to run these days. Not ideal, it’s part of my job, but I spent so many years training to be fast over distance that now I just want to do other stuff. I kettlebell train and I kayak. I walk and I occasionally run. I enjoyed finding high volume swings helped me achieve decent scores in the MSFT (beep test) with minimal direct training.

If I’m disciplined, I run twice per week; a fast 5k tempo run and a interval session.
 
I have a fifty pounder that I use strictly for conditioning work. In addition to what you’ve already covered, I have begun using some snatches and clean+press with each rep starting on the floor. That really fires up my engine. That’s really all I’m going for with the kettlebell, as I will typically have just gotten done with some heavy barbell work for strength prior to breaking the 'bell out.

I will also come in and swing it around on non-lifting days, get the heart rate up and then go hit the sauna.

I have also taken it car camping and given the early-morning beach goers a sight to behold. Side-note: The beach is a great place to literally throw the kettlebell and see what happens when you let it fly after a vigorous swing. Watching a 50 pound chunk of metal arc through the air and make a sand crater with a very satisfying thump is very appealing to my lizard brain. The splash and kerplunk you get when tossing it into the water is equally amusing.

An MMA guy trains at my gym and his eyes lit up when I told him he could use my fifty pounder that I keep behind the desk. He’s incredibly well-conditioned and quite strong for his size, which I’d put at around 175 and 5’10". He was doing rounded-back two hand swings with a LOT of knee bend, nearly brushing the bell against the floor at the bottom. He’d swing the bell as high as he could, making it a very long, very explosive movement. I asked him about his technique and he felt the exaggerated range of motion and explosiveness of the movement was helpful for MMA grappling. I had never seen anyone do it like that before, but he does a lot of wacky stuff that seems to work for him.
 
How do you incorporate running and kettlebell training into your week?

I train it on different days. I hate doing endurance training after strength training.

What KB programs do you find complementary?

I'm currently following Kettlebells StrongFirst from BJJFanatics. Works out pretty good with running and other stuff since it only 2 days a week.

How many days of the week do you run/kettlebell train?

2 days of running, 2 days of kettlebell training and (when there is no lockdown) 2 days of kickboxing.

How many rest days do you take during the week?

1 or 2 rest days a week. Check out my log for details.

Stats:
39 year old male.
178cm
73/75kg
 
Monday, Wed, Fri: kettlebell. Tues, Thurs: easy run. Sat a heavy but short ruck, typically on a mountain by my house.

I typically alternate 6 week cycles of Quick and Dead, with 6 weeks of Alactic and aerobic. In Q&d I follow Pavel’s article recommendation of how to include deadlifts Q&D + Minimalist Deadlifts | StrongFirst and after those I do 2-3 Turkish get ups with 40kg (my S&S weight) on the 40 and 60 rep days. I found if I skipped tgus that I would lose strength in them over time. It adds a few minutes but I am able to notice improved strength in both push ups and tgus.

A+A i usually do an A/B split schedule where A is (double) clean and jerks 1-3 at a time and B days are either double snatches or a single chain of clean, press, squat, snatch. I work my way up to 100 reps (on jerks and snatches, in the chain, I would go up to an hour, so only 60 reps) and then move up in weight. So one week is A, B, A and the next week is B, A, B.

The running I keep easy 30-60 minutes, occasional strides but no structured speed work. Some cycles I will replace a run with a kettlebell mile, The Kettlebell Mile | StrongFirst, either way I still see improvement in strength and cardio. I ruck on Saturday for the army, but that could be a long run for you if you don’t want to ruck.

I have done some version of this for most of the year and found steady progress without any real disadvantages for me.
impressive!
 
Lifting and running here also - previously, lifting was the priority but I have since transitioned to making endurance the priority with strength work as an accessory/supplement. I have at least two 21km races on the calendar for early 2022 but those are mainly to emphasize speed as I move into a marathon in mid 2022 and an ultra late in 2022.

There are two primary ways to look at it (IMO): Do something everyday (alternate run/lift days or add in a few doubles if required) or take a consolidation of stressors approach (run and strength train in the same day so that rest days are truly rest days).

I try to do something every day but also travel quite a bit for work and on those days away from home with a bit less access to familiar run routes and equipment, I then try to consolidate stressors.

With the 21km races I have lined up, I am run training 4 days a week and find that sufficient provided the runs are long enough and have enough volume. Two easier/base (zone 2) runs, one shorter interval (VO2 max) workout, and one long run with some zone 2 mileage and some race pace target miles in there as well.

I keep strength training to 3 days a week personally; I have a bit of a strength reserve so to speak compared to where I am in my endurance journey so it's about keeping as much strength, mobility, durability, and function as possible. As far as what I am doing, it's more of an A+A or Q&D approach. I keep a hinge movement in as a staple and will add one to two other movements in based on what I am feeling that day.
 
So, to preface, I'm a lifter who runs, not the other way around.
I do as much as I can, as often as I can.
I think this is dead on, but you really have to emphasize as I can. The whole trick of mixing running and strength training is learning where, for you personally, they interfere, and what you have to do to avoid conflict. For me personally, I find lifting on legs made tired by running is far worse than running on legs tired from lifting. So I tend to structure my programs to look something like this:
  1. Lift heavy on one day
  2. Do some running + relatively light ballistics next day
  3. Some flavor of rest day before going back to step 1
That works for me - but I will say that I am in no way prepared for a 21k. I think for longer distances you really have to accumulate a lot more volume than I do, which means heavy lifting is out of the picture.
I think high-volume S&S is well suited to accumulating running volume - and by high-volume here, I mean keeping the weight light enough that you feel like you can do it every day, even on legs/back tired from running. If you're trying to up your running volume, give up on progressing to the next bell, and instead just try to reap the "hardening" aspect of training light and frequently.
 
An MMA guy trains at my gym and his eyes lit up when I told him he could use my fifty pounder that I keep behind the desk. He’s incredibly well-conditioned and quite strong for his size, which I’d put at around 175 and 5’10". He was doing rounded-back two hand swings with a LOT of knee bend, nearly brushing the bell against the floor at the bottom. He’d swing the bell as high as he could, making it a very long, very explosive movement. I asked him about his technique and he felt the exaggerated range of motion and explosiveness of the movement was helpful for MMA grappling. I had never seen anyone do it like that before, but he does a lot of wacky stuff that seems to work for him.
Actually, the overhead swing (one arm, usually with a dumbbell) has been around for a long time. Some of the old-timers went quite heavy in it - George Jowett was particularly good at it, his record in the lift apparently standing at 210 lbs. With a weight like that, I would pretty much expect him to dip down to at least a partial squat or lunge to catch it, similar to a heavy one-arm snatch. If the exercise ever was especially popular among combat athletes, I cannot say, since I haven't found / can't remember any specific reference to it. I have one German wrestling book from 1936 which seems to describe a straight arm "swinging snatch" with a kettlebell, though.
 
2-3x per week A+A or Strength Aerobics style training (following the Adcanced or Intermediate plans from SF-KB from BJJ fanatics- either Swings + GUs or LCCJs)
2-3x per week easy running, one being longer. Aiming for 3 of both.

Had you noticed any losses of strength for more 'grinds' type lifts when focusing on solely ballistic ones like in A&A?
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom