Kettlebell [Form Check] Heavy DFSQ

[Sean M]

Eager to get feedback on my heavy (to me) double front squat at 2x32kg.

First clip is 2x24kg C&P+FSQ for an example of a moderate weight (7RM).

Second clip is 2x32kg FSQ with “hands not together” grip.

Third clip is 2x32kg FSQ with “hands together” grip - which as you can see means not-vertical forearms when viewed from the front.

I can’t tell which grip width is best for me.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I notice that you're cleaning with a vertical grip on the set up. I don't know if there is an official word on what is the correct grip is for a double clean, but a horizontal or a "V" (thumbs slightly back) will let you hike it back further initially and get a little more hip drive into it. I'll leave it to the professionals to give you feedback on the squat, but you may want to record one with a side angle to look to rounding shoulders, back, butt tuck etc. Looks good from that angle.

 

[Sean M]

I notice that you're cleaning with a vertical grip on the set up. I don't know if there is an official word on what is the correct grip is for a double clean, but a horizontal or a "V" (thumbs slightly back) will let you hike it back further initially and get a little more hip drive into it. I'll leave it to the professionals to give you feedback on the squat, but you may want to record one with a side angle to look to rounding shoulders, back, butt tuck etc. Looks good from that angle.

I'll try that, to see if I get more hip power for the heavy clean. I prefer the "pistol grip" / thumbs forward for heavy snatch but it may not be optimal here.

I'll post with a side angle, good point. I realized on review that my barbell plate is kind of blocking things at the bottom.

 

[Geoff Neupert]

Eager to get feedback on my heavy (to me) double front squat at 2x32kg.

First clip is 2x24kg C&P+FSQ for an example of a moderate weight (7RM).

Second clip is 2x32kg FSQ with “hands not together” grip.

Third clip is 2x32kg FSQ with “hands together” grip - which as you can see means not-vertical forearms when viewed from the front.

I can’t tell which grip width is best for me.

Sean,

Here's a quick breakdown for you...

THE SET UP

1. Keep your head up and eyes on the horizon, not on the floor in front of you. The latter makes you drop your chest and round your shoulder (0:05).

2. Actively push your chest out at the start of the hike pass while keeping your head up. You are lifting your hips up. You can do this with the lighter weights. It gets harder with the heavier ones. Also, by pushing your chest out, you can let the bells travel further back underneath you, creating a bigger stretch on the hamstrings. This creates a more powerful concentric and makes it easier to get the bells into the rack.

THE GRIP.

The Pistol Grip is used by many GS competitors. I don’t think StrongFirst actively advocates it. Use the Inverted V as an alternative. It allows you to keep the chest up and keep the lats engaged on the backswing. It also makes the bells practically “roll” up into the rack on your cleans.

THE SQUAT.

Initiate the squat by bending the knees FIRST, then breaking at the hips. You’re breaking at the hips first. This makes you lean forward, rounding over at the shoulders and tucking your tail (it looks like) in the bottom.

Think about squatting “down” with a big chest between your legs and not “back.” Think about squatting so your torso is “on top” of your feet. This should keep you more upright and make it easier getting out of the hole. Furthermore, as you squat, think about simultaneously pushing your knees forward and your hips back. This should shift the weight into your mid/fore-foot, which activates the hamstrings and gluts a little more, creating more stability throughout the movement and makes it easier to stand up.

There are a couple of other cues I could give you, but starting there I think would help you out. If you get stuck, ping me, we can hop on a Zoom call.

Hope that helps.

 

[Sean M]

Sean,

Here's a quick breakdown for you...

THE SET UP

1. Keep your head up and eyes on the horizon, not on the floor in front of you. The latter makes you drop your chest and round your shoulder (0:05).

2. Actively push your chest out at the start of the hike pass while keeping your head up. You are lifting your hips up. You can do this with the lighter weights. It gets harder with the heavier ones. Also, by pushing your chest out, you can let the bells travel further back underneath you, creating a bigger stretch on the hamstrings. This creates a more powerful concentric and makes it easier to get the bells into the rack.

THE GRIP.

The Pistol Grip is used by many GS competitors. I don’t think StrongFirst actively advocates it. Use the Inverted V as an alternative. It allows you to keep the chest up and keep the lats engaged on the backswing. It also makes the bells practically “roll” up into the rack on your cleans.

THE SQUAT.

Initiate the squat by bending the knees FIRST, then breaking at the hips. You’re breaking at the hips first. This makes you lean forward, rounding over at the shoulders and tucking your tail (it looks like) in the bottom.

Think about squatting “down” with a big chest between your legs and not “back.” Think about squatting so your torso is “on top” of your feet. This should keep you more upright and make it easier getting out of the hole. Furthermore, as you squat, think about simultaneously pushing your knees forward and your hips back. This should shift the weight into your mid/fore-foot, which activates the hamstrings and gluts a little more, creating more stability throughout the movement and makes it easier to stand up.

There are a couple of other cues I could give you, but starting there I think would help you out. If you get stuck, ping me, we can hop on a Zoom call.

Hope that helps.

Thank you, sir! I will reach out.

Meantime, those cues helped immediately (still work to be done though):


I notice on slow-mo that I need to work on my heavy clean before ramping up my front squat.

I set up either too close or too far from the bell. Hips are back to start but don’t go farther back but forward instead. Should I start with feet closer to the bells and a more horizontal back angle, to allow room to sink back? I think I start too far back so I have to compensate for balance by bringing hips forward too early.

I don’t drive with the hips, I seem to be (to my surprise) muscling them up by pulling up and back with the “trebuchet” of my upper body.

The “knees first” cue was gold, thank you.

I do have a kyphotic upper back, but I think that means I have the work all that much harder to keep the thoracic spine extended.

I don’t have any pain or aches in my lower back, I’ve been free of injury (short of a few torn calluses) my entire 3.5 year journey with kettlebells.

 

[Steve W.]

Think about squatting “down” with a big chest between your legs and not “back.” Think about squatting so your torso is “on top” of your feet. This should keep you more upright and make it easier getting out of the hole.

@Sean M
This is the biggest thing I see in your squat.

The more you sit back behind your feet, the more you have to lean forward. The more you lean forward, the more you have to fight to keep the bells from spilling out of the rack. This will also limit your depth.

Conversely, the more you can sit down between your feet, the more upright you can keep your torso. The more upright you can keep your torso, the more you can keep your elbows in tight to your body and underneath the bells (instead of lifting your elbows away from your body to keep the bells in the rack).

I try to keep my torso as upright as possible, with my elbows in tight and underneath the bells. As much as possible, I don't want the rack position to move from where it is when I am standing, and I want to minimize lifting the elbows away from my body. When I am in the bottom of the squat, my elbows are between my legs behind the plane of my knees (closer to my body). I find this helps me keep the bells in the rack more easily, and enables me to get better depth. BTW, I don't necessarily think it is "wrong" if your elbows lift away from your body. Looking at various videos posted online, lots of good KB squatters do this -- it's probably more common than not.

Ankle mobility can make a big difference in how much you can sit down between your feet with an upright torso, but you can compensate for this somewhat with stance width and foot turnout. My ankles are extremely jacked up (sorry to use technical medical jargon) from innumerable basketball injuries and wear and tear, so my ankle mobility is not the best. Personally, I am willing to use a little more turnout than most people recommend in order to be able to keep more upright and squat with a tighter rack. You might experiment with your stance to see if you can comfortably make a little more space to squat down rather than back.

How is your goblet squat? Can you keep your torso more upright and sink your hips more straight down holding a single bell tight to your chest? If so, try finding closer to that groove in your double front squat.

 

[Sean M]

@Steve W. You asked about my goblet squat. Here is 24kg and 32kg:

And here is another recent practice of heavy FSQ:

 

[Van Der Merve]

I flare my elbows much wider than in any of the videos above. It helps to keep the chest "open" - shoulders back. Not sure if it's a big deal from the point of view of SF technique.

 

[Steve Freides]

I flare my elbows much wider than in any of the videos above. It helps to keep the chest "open" - shoulders back. Not sure if it's a big deal from the point of view of SF technique.

From the 2003 video, "More Russian Kettlebell Challenges"

"Unlike the kettlebell clean and press, where your shoulders are tight, in the kettlebell front squat, you must bring the shoulder blades together [in the front, not the back]. There's not too much tension in the shoulder girdle; most of the tension is in the stomach. The elbows come close together."

Unfortunately, this video is now online. The above is taken from about the 10-minute mark into the video, where there is about 2 minutes on the front squat. (I still have my VHS tape of this.)

-S-

 

[Van Der Merve]

How the hell do you bring the shoulder blades together in the front?

 

[Sean M]

Here are 10 singles with 2x32kg from today. Forgive my resemblance to a fluffy vanilla ice cream cone

What I notice on review is I get a bit forward on the way up (the line in the wall behind me helps as a reference point), which I can also feel as a sticking point. I think that means I need to think “vertical” and lead the way up with the traps (without shrugging).

 

[Papa Georgio]

I believe you can get away with going shallower. You are going below parallel to the point of butt wink. See what the instructors say.

 

[Steve Freides]

How the hell do you bring the shoulder blades together in the front?

May I suggest you visit YouTube and watch the video? There is almost 8 minutes of instruction and demonstration about the front squat, from about 09:27 to about 17:14

Thank you.

-S-

 

[Van Der Merve]

May I suggest you visit YouTube and watch the video? There is almost 8 minutes of instruction and demonstration about the front squat, from about 09:27 to about 17:14

Thank you.

-S-

Ok, watched it. "Shoulder blades together while hunching forward" still doesnt make sense. Thought I understand what he means.

My original question wasn't about that though, but about flaring the elbows. Which Mr.P does quite a bit on the video.

I personally like FSQ to copy barbell front squat - chest out, elbows up etc. Same as, but easier on the wrists.

These are Pavel's early videos, the "Spetznaz comrade" period, and quite a few things changed in terms of the recommended technique since.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Van Der Merve, I've watched the video twice - that's exactly how I still do my kettlebell front squats, and to the best of my knowledge, also how we still teach them at StrongFirst. We do not do them as if with a barbell. Pavel's forearms stay in the same place throughout the movement, and his elbows aren't near his knees, they're inside them, which means they are not flared out, just being held in a way that's necessary to support the bells in the "triangle" of the elbow, forearm and upper arm.

The language has changed, the teaching hasn't.

@Brett Jones

-S-

 

[Van Der Merve]

All right, my mistake.