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Barbell Form check please - Return to sumo DL

Aj Bhardwaj

Level 1 Valued Member
Hey Folks!

Form Check: Post Disk herniation/bulge returning back into DLs running easy strength. You can find my log and details here

 

watchnerd

Level 8 Valued Member
Hey Folks!

Form Check: Post Disk herniation/bulge returning back into DLs running easy strength. You can find my log and details here


Congrats on back from surgery!

From this angle, it looks pretty good, but if you make your stance a little wider, can you get a bit flatter back?

(depends on hip geometry)
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Team Leader Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
Any particular reason to do touch-and-go? I'd suggest, in most cases and especially when coming back to deadlifting after back issues, to drop the weight a little faster (keep hands on bar but fall with gravity), and then set up deliberately for each new rep, like this.
 

Antti

Level 9 Valued Member
Any particular reason to do touch-and-go? I'd suggest, in most cases and especially when coming back to deadlifting after back issues, to drop the weight a little faster (keep hands on bar but fall with gravity), and then set up deliberately for each new rep, like this.

I think we've discussed this before, but I think I'll still disagree. Why would the deadlift be so different from the others exercises so that we forgo the eccentric?

If one has back issues, I think loading is key.

If anything, I think there's a bigger margin for mistakes if one tries to lower the bar faster than slower.

I can somewhat understand forgoing the eccentric if recovery is an issue, but that's a whole separate discussion.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Team Leader Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
I think we've discussed this before, but I think I'll still disagree. Why would the deadlift be so different from the others exercises so that we forgo the eccentric?

If one has back issues, I think loading is key.

If anything, I think there's a bigger margin for mistakes if one tries to lower the bar faster than slower.

I can somewhat understand forgoing the eccentric if recovery is an issue, but that's a whole separate discussion.

This article and videos sums up what I would have to say on it, so I'll refer to it... Which is Better? Touch-and-Go or Reset Deadlifts | PowerliftingTechnique.com

Also this video talks about a research paper that showed that dead stop is better for strength development.

I agree, loading is the key if one has back issues. Which is more reason, in my mind, to take the extra seconds on the set-up for each lift.

As for margin for error for lowering the bar faster... lowering the bar is a skill in and of itself that takes a bit of practice, and some lower faster than others. I don't advocate dropping the bar from the top like they do in CrossFit, but I mostly drop it at the speed of gravity with my hands on it. As for how much eccentric... there can be some variation there. This is what I normally do, but some people (such as in the Citizen Athletics video I linked) have more eccentric, which seems fine too.

As for why is the deadlift different from other exercises hat we forgo the eccentric... well, that's a good question. But since I've been weightlifting I actually do a lot of lifting with no eccentric. Clean and snatch are pretty much a concentric deadlift + a concentric squat. Not much eccentric on either part of it. Jerk is a concentric push and then concentric recovery. Still works for overall training and strength development purposes. (I also do regular squats and other pulls, so I can't say for sure where the strength development starts and ends. Recent training session here.)
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Team Leader Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
Here is another good summary on advantages and disadvantages (link to page). I highlighted the part that might be relevant to the back issues. Notice it sort of argues both ways -- yes, touch-and-go be better because you stay tight, but also a little riskier because you're more likely to get out of position.

1654172647584.png
 

Antti

Level 9 Valued Member
This article and videos sums up what I would have to say on it, so I'll refer to it... Which is Better? Touch-and-Go or Reset Deadlifts | PowerliftingTechnique.com

Also this video talks about a research paper that showed that dead stop is better for strength development.

I agree, loading is the key if one has back issues. Which is more reason, in my mind, to take the extra seconds on the set-up for each lift.

As for margin for error for lowering the bar faster... lowering the bar is a skill in and of itself that takes a bit of practice, and some lower faster than others. I don't advocate dropping the bar from the top like they do in CrossFit, but I mostly drop it at the speed of gravity with my hands on it. As for how much eccentric... there can be some variation there. This is what I normally do, but some people (such as in the Citizen Athletics video I linked) have more eccentric, which seems fine too.

As for why is the deadlift different from other exercises hat we forgo the eccentric... well, that's a good question. But since I've been weightlifting I actually do a lot of lifting with no eccentric. Clean and snatch are pretty much a concentric deadlift + a concentric squat. Not much eccentric on either part of it. Jerk is a concentric push and then concentric recovery. Still works for overall training and strength development purposes. (I also do regular squats and other pulls, so I can't say for sure where the strength development starts and ends. Recent training session here.)

Here is another good summary on advantages and disadvantages (link to page). I highlighted the part that might be relevant to the back issues. Notice it sort of argues both ways -- yes, touch-and-go be better because you stay tight, but also a little riskier because you're more likely to get out of position.

View attachment 17833

To be clear, I only talked about the eccentric, not touch and go Vs dead stop. Though that's something worth a discussion as well.

I think the typical point of view on the deadlift negative is how the faster eccentric with less control is somehow safer. I don't buy it. On the other hand, coaches like Marty Gallagher have spoken about the importance of a proper negative on the deadlift.

The lack of negatives in weightlifting is a good point. I understand negatives were more common in the time before bumper plates.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Team Leader Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
To be clear, I only talked about the eccentric, not touch and go Vs dead stop. Though that's something worth a discussion as well.

I think the typical point of view on the deadlift negative is how the faster eccentric with less control is somehow safer. I don't buy it. On the other hand, coaches like Marty Gallagher have spoken about the importance of a proper negative on the deadlift.

The lack of negatives in weightlifting is a good point. I understand negatives were more common in the time before bumper plates.

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood your main point. But I enjoyed delving into the touch-and-go vs. regaular deadlift subject, anyway :)

Agree, there's a continuum on how much load one experiences on the eccentric with a regular set of deadlifts that aren't touch-and-go. Definitely not a binary yes/no type thing. I can see there may be some advantage to more of a negative.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Most of what I see called touch-and-go deadlifts are, to me, bounced off the floor. I practice a version I learned from Marty Gallagher, which is to lower the weights under control until they just kiss the ground, then start back up again. You never completely release the tension, and you take a moment in the bottom position.

I don't do these all the time, tending to do them in my off-cycles and the beginning of competition cycles but switching to a "set of singles" as a meet or PR attempt draws closer.

Not something I teach to a beginner but something I believe contributes to hypertrophy more than any other deadlift variation I'm aware of. Definitely something I credit to building back strength. And also a very interesting comment on one's deadlift start since one can argue that the position your assume as you start to pull up on reps 2 and after is what you should be trying to achieve for rep 1 and all your singles - not a goal I have achieved.

Video is from 4 years ago.


-S-
 

Antti

Level 9 Valued Member
Oh, sorry, I misunderstood your main point. But I enjoyed delving into the touch-and-go vs. regaular deadlift subject, anyway :)

Agree, there's a continuum on how much load one experiences on the eccentric with a regular set of deadlifts that aren't touch-and-go. Definitely not a binary yes/no type thing. I can see there may be some advantage to more of a negative.
Most of what I see called touch-and-go deadlifts are, to me, bounced off the floor. I practice a version I learned from Marty Gallagher, which is to lower the weights under control until they just kiss the ground, then start back up again. You never completely release the tension, and you take a moment in the bottom position.

I don't do these all the time, tending to do them in my off-cycles and the beginning of competition cycles but switching to a "set of singles" as a meet or PR attempt draws closer.

Not something I teach to a beginner but something I believe contributes to hypertrophy more than any other deadlift variation I'm aware of. Definitely something I credit to building back strength. And also a very interesting comment on one's deadlift start since one can argue that the position your assume as you start to pull up on reps 2 and after is what you should be trying to achieve for rep 1 and all your singles - not a goal I have achieved.

Video is from 4 years ago.


-S-

I agree with Steve.

I don't think we should look at exercises done wrong as a base for dismissing a way of doing things. Just because someone bounces a touch and go deadlift, doesn't mean that it makes touch and go bad.

Personally, I like really heavy dead stop deadlifts for singles or relatively short and solitary sets. Touch and go I think I do stiff leg style more these days.

I think 99% of my deadlifting has been from a dead stop. I think there is value in both ways. Done correctly both ways are more alike than different.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Team Leader Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
I agree with Steve.

I don't think we should look at exercises done wrong as a base for dismissing a way of doing things. Just because someone bounces a touch and go deadlift, doesn't mean that it makes touch and go bad.

Personally, I like really heavy dead stop deadlifts for singles or relatively short and solitary sets. Touch and go I think I do stiff leg style more these days.

I think 99% of my deadlifting has been from a dead stop. I think there is value in both ways. Done correctly both ways are more alike than different.

I agree with Steve also. And I agree with what you're saying here. Nothing wrong with that style, IMO. I just wouldn't recommend it to someone who's coming back to deadlifting after back issues, as OP is. It appears to me that @Aj Bhardwaj method matches Steve's in the videos provided in this thread, as far as the touch and go aspect. Difference being that @Aj Bhardwaj is sumo and @Steve Freides is conventional.

But I guess we're back to where we were -- I suggest more of a dead stop method, with coming back to deadlifting after back issues. You're still saying his current method is OK, just as good, or perhaps better, than dead stop deadlifts, in his circumstance?
 

Aj Bhardwaj

Level 1 Valued Member
I personally love dead stops closer to competitions where per set volume is lower and eccentric version of "touch n go" following a 3-4 sec tempo for hypertrophy phase.
 
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Aj Bhardwaj

Level 1 Valued Member
I suppose the purpose of TnGo here is TUT. I need a bigger booty. And more loading through the posterior chain in general.

I agree that for speed of the floor dead stop is best. As always, as Dan John says "why not both?"
 

watchnerd

Level 8 Valued Member
I think we've discussed this before, but I think I'll still disagree. Why would the deadlift be so different from the others exercises so that we forgo the eccentric?

FWIW:

1. When I do clean dead lifts and snatch dead lifts, I not only do slow eccentrics, but also "halting" variations, e.g. holding a snatch DL for a pause at the beginning of the 2nd pull, then holding a snatch DL for a pause where the 3rd pull would happen, no lock-out (shoulders stay over bar, hips never come fully forward), and then a very slow eccentric and full dead stop reset.

2. When I do RDLs, SLDLs, or Good Mornings, I do medium fast concentrics and very slow eccentrics because I'm trying to max out the hamstring stretch ROM with an isometric lower back hold.

2. When I do snatch pulls and and clean pulls where I come up on my toes, it's fast up and fast down (nearly dropping).
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
I just wouldn't recommend it to someone who's coming back to deadlifting after back issues, as OP is.
100% - I think I'd been deadlifting for at least 10 years before I ever tried that kind of controlled descent + light touch.

-S-
 

Antti

Level 9 Valued Member
I agree with Steve also. And I agree with what you're saying here. Nothing wrong with that style, IMO. I just wouldn't recommend it to someone who's coming back to deadlifting after back issues, as OP is. It appears to me that @Aj Bhardwaj method matches Steve's in the videos provided in this thread, as far as the touch and go aspect. Difference being that @Aj Bhardwaj is sumo and @Steve Freides is conventional.

But I guess we're back to where we were -- I suggest more of a dead stop method, with coming back to deadlifting after back issues. You're still saying his current method is OK, just as good, or perhaps better, than dead stop deadlifts, in his circumstance?

I do think that a slower eccentric is better, as the slower one is easier to control than a faster one. And more control means less chance of injury.

I coach kids and adults who have never done a deadlift. I want a proper eccentric on the first deadlift rep they ever do, and one on every rep after.

With both these novices and back injuries and in reality everyone, load management is key. Don't add load unless you're proficient with your current load and only add it with appropriate steps.

When it comes to back problems I think it's a great idea to teach a controlled eccentric in the gym. Then one can do it better in real life, whether it's dropping bags of groceries or a child or a couch or anything. Barbells with bumper plates can be dropped, most of what we lift outside the gym can not.

One added benefit for back problems with the slower eccentric is improved hypertrophy. Not only is bigger stronger and thus healthier, the muscles in the midsection keep things put.
 

watchnerd

Level 8 Valued Member
One added benefit for back problems with the slower eccentric is improved hypertrophy. Not only is bigger stronger and thus healthier, the muscles in the midsection keep things put.

Slow DL-family eccentrics are like a hamstring hypertrophy cheat code for me.

Unfortunately, they're also a cheat code for vicious DOMs.
 
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