Form check

Discussion in 'Kettlebell' started by Gary Wilson, Aug 29, 2019.

  1. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    Hard to say without seeing.

    It's so easy to video these days with a phone... I'd recommend you video yourself each session, and even if you don't every upload or keep, you'll have something to look back at if your back feels better or worse later.

    I watched the videos above again for any clues, and this is really just a guess... but I notice a bit of tucking the pelvis under at the top of both the swing and the deadlift. I'd practice moving from hinge to plank slowly without doing that. Put your fingers on your hip bone and thumb on your ribcage when standing in a neutral position. Move to hinge, then back to plank, and back and forth with different speeds. The distance between fingers and thumb should not change. If you tuck your pelvis under, it will get shorter as you stand (not what you want, but possibly what you're doing).

    In the standing position, you want TIGHT abs and TIGHT glutes, but no pelvic tilt.
     
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  2. Gary Wilson

    Gary Wilson Triple-Digit Post Count

    Thanks, i have just tried that with my fingers and thumb, doesn't feel like too much movement really.
    I think i do tuck my hips a little though when trying to squeeze my glutes.

    It feels like possibly my left QL muscle, its in that area anyway.

    I think i just need to go back to 2 handed swings for a while as they dont seem to cause me any problems
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
  3. SuperGirevik

    SuperGirevik More than 300 posts

  4. Gary Wilson

    Gary Wilson Triple-Digit Post Count

    It feels a bit better today, not good enough for a workout tho so just done some stretching and practicing that deadlift movement
     
  5. Brett Jones

    Brett Jones StrongFirst Director of Education Staff Member Master Instructor

    Gary
    I would work on the Deadlift and Get-up for the moment and wait on the swings until you can get "tuned up."

    The initial set-up for the deadlift in the first video was good and then once in motion you are squatting instead of hinging.
    In the second video it was a bitter hinge but at the finish I would focus on "getting tall" instead of "finishing the hip" (since finishing your hips looks like a tuck of the pelvis).
     
  6. Gary Wilson

    Gary Wilson Triple-Digit Post Count

    Ok thanks, so i should be trying to squeeze the glutes but not from throwing my hips forward too much, is that correct?

    I feel like i could make a decent effort on getups with the 32kg now but feel like my swings are just not happening.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  7. Brett Jones

    Brett Jones StrongFirst Director of Education Staff Member Master Instructor

    Gary
    Overall yes—think extension (standing up tall) not "thrust".

    Focus on the Get-ups and Deadlifts and wait on the swings
     
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  8. Gary Wilson

    Gary Wilson Triple-Digit Post Count

    Ok im gonna spend the next couple weeks trying to get less hip tucking and more knee bend, standing tall going on with the deadlift, ill put up another film soon now i have more understanding of what i should and shouldn't be doing
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  9. Bunn

    Bunn Triple-Digit Post Count

    @Gary Wilson I will add just one more thing to think about. You need to maintain full body tension throughout the movement, I have found that when I get lazy and am not properly bracing, my lower back will begin to hurt (particularly on the back swing). As soon as I notice this, I tighten back up and it all goes away. If I do as I am supposed to on each and every swing, I never have an issue. You cant just hit the hard plank at the top and then let it all go, you need to keep yourself tight the entire set.
     
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  10. Gary Wilson

    Gary Wilson Triple-Digit Post Count

    Just had a quick go with the 16kg to see if my deadlift looks ok, if so I'll carry on practicing this


    I find the knee bending really awkward, like when people say try to mimick jumping instead of thrusting the hips, to me that jumping is more of a squat movement not a deadlift movement so i find it very confusing
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  11. Brett Jones

    Brett Jones StrongFirst Director of Education Staff Member Master Instructor

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  12. Gary Wilson

    Gary Wilson Triple-Digit Post Count

    Ive been filming my last couple of workouts so i can watch back and see where im going wrong which i think is helping.
    One thing ive noticed is my prying squat to warm up, it looks like my lower back isnt quite straight, is there anything i can do to help with this?
    Im doing this prying squat every morning regardless of im working out or not and it has improved massively
    Screenshot_20190905-144207_Video Player.jpg


    Just wondering if its its anything to be worried about
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  13. advtracer

    advtracer Double-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    @Gary Wilson its hard to tell...But, It doesn't look bad. The aim of the prying goblet squat in S&S is to keep the squat groove alive and , if needed, create space on both sides/middle of your pelvis. If the aim were to get as deep as possible, my suggestions might be different. The weight tends to be negligible in lieu of creating space. The depth will come through persistence and consistency. Try a wider stance and reach back further like you are trying to sit on a curb, while reaching tall with the chest (make more space). You may sacrifice some depth but hopefully enhance the "prying" effect. Perhaps, film yourself performing the GS without any weight, play with it, shift your weight fore and aft, see if you can slide the hips back while keeping the chest up, see if you can enhance the sensation. Then repeat with the KB and compare. See if anything is different??? Don't forget to practice abdominal tension throughout the entire GS. How are you at breathing behind the shield? This alone will limit the "loose" depth of your squat that is contributing to the pelvic tilt as the intra-abdominal pressure will help to stabilize the pelvis.
     
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  14. Gary Wilson

    Gary Wilson Triple-Digit Post Count

    Thanks, i thought they could be contributing to by bad back.

    I do take a deep breath when lowering, i breath while prying then take a deep breath and exhale on the way up.

    Without the kettlebell i cant get down to the point where my elbows are near my knees without leaning far forward.

    As long as it doesn't look bad then im happy to keep doing it as i am.
     
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  15. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    Goblet squat looks good, Gary, and good advice from @advtracer above.

    The one part you might want stop doing is the slight bouncing up and down -- just sink as low as you can (pull yourself down with hip flexors) staying tall, prying the hips open. The shifting back and forth is good.
     
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  16. Abdul-Rasheed

    Abdul-Rasheed Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    I was doing it this way. Imagining it all to be purely hip drive, and that when the body is upright, i used the cue that it is the hip that is driving the bell.

    I applied this cue, and I thought it helped me a lot, and that I swung KB better.

    Thanks!
     
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  17. Steve W.

    Steve W. Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    I definitely agree with you on this issue. I do try to keep the upper arm connected with the torso as long as possible, delaying the hinge on the downswing so that the arm and torso go into the hinge together, and keeping the arm down during the hip drive so that the arm stays connected to the torso until momentum carries it up into the float.

    But "connected" and "together" are more cues about maintaining that chain of force transfer and do not mean the hips are PUSHING on the forearm (or even in contact with the lower arm). To me, pushing the arm with the hips means the arm and hips are out of sync and NOT moving together, with the arm lagging behind the hips so the hips hit the arms and push them forward.

    Often this goes along with a timing problem on the downswing, where the hinge is too early and/or too fast so the hips move back too early ahead of the bell. Then the forward hip drive starts before the bell has finished moving backward. So you get a head on collision between the arm still moving back and the hips moving forward, wasting hip drive on braking and reversing the bell's backward movement instead of using it all to accelerate the bell forward.

    Being patient is a big key to good timing in the swing. Patience in maintaining the vertical plank and not hinging too early. Patience in letting the backswing complete before starting the forward hip drive. Patience in matching the hip drive to the momentum of the bell -- With a lighter bell, you can "front load" the hip drive with a powerful initial blast to START the hip drive strongly. With a heavy bell, you have to "back load" the hip drive, ramping up the power and keeping it turned on longer to FINISH the hip drive strongly.
     
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  18. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    Yes, good points... forearm connected to the inside of the thigh on the downswing can be good. Also fine for the initial hip drive.

    It's the "hips pushing the forearm" as part of the upswing that seems to be misdirected movement.

    Oddly, it's pretty common, and I haven't been able to gather much agreement from other instructors that it's wrong. So, thanks for your agreement... With you being someone who can analyze and describe kettlebell movement better than anyone else I can think of, that's excellent support for my position!
     
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  19. Abdul-Rasheed

    Abdul-Rasheed Quadruple-Digit Post Count

  20. Steve W.

    Steve W. Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    Thank you for your kind words.

    I really try not to dogmatically follow any specific orthodoxy about "correct" form, but to make observations and judgments based on practical experience, logic that makes sense to me, and my own aesthetic sensibilities ("If it looks right, it flies right").

    Back in the day, I actually went through a phase of banging my arms forward with my hips. It kind of felt like I was putting the "hard" in hard style by using that impact, and that it was applying the idea of driving the bell with the hips. But I moved away from it because I found it less powerful in practice, logically less than optimal as I explained above, and ultimately not aesthetically pleasing.

    I guess this isn't an issue that is explicitly discussed in SF standards, but my experience, logic, and aesthetics have led me to share your opinion that it is something to be avoided.
     
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