Barbell Form critique Oly lifting
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watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
On the clean:
- Speed under the bar is slow and you're catching in the power position because the weight is too light for what you're capable of, based on the height you pulled to. Try adding weight that you *can't* pull that high, which will force you to get under it or miss the clean.
- Doing the combo of clean + front squat + jerk sapped all the energy out of your jerk and wasted the stored energy from the initial clean. I pretty much never do that combo for that reason, unless I'm just doing conditioning.
- Arms were a little shaky on the jerk. Try lowering your chin a little, which usually tightens up the traps and upper back.
- You're jumping waaay too high, which is imparting the energy from the final pull into you jumping into the air, as opposed to putting that energy into the bar. It also makes it really hard to get under the bar because you're higher.
- It looks like you make the last pull a little early, before it meets the crease of your waist, which means your hip power isn't full going into the bar
- Again, try lowering your chin after the catch, especially as you're coming out of the bottom, to tighten up your lats and lock out harder.
Overall, not bad at all for doing it on carpet and being self coached!
Excellent feedback, thank you @watchnerd !
Yes with both the clean and the snatch, my power to elevate the bar exceeds my ability to catch and stabilize... That's been my nemesis. My biggest challenge has been how to attack the weight and 3rd pull without purposely dialing back the 1st and 2nd pull. (Dialing it back sort of works, but only without full hip extension... which seems like a bad habit and approach). When I go heavier than this, I tend to miss. I'm not sure why other than triple trouble -- I have trouble moving fast under the bar, dropping fast into a squat, and stabilizing the heavy weight in the squat. I'm getting very slowly and incrementally better at all three of these, but they aren't coming easy.
Great suggestion to lower the chin on both, I will implement that.
You're right the last pull on the snatch is early. And my arms are bent too early. If only I could go heavier and get under it!
Thanks for your input, much appreciated.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
What you're experiencing are typical novice lifter issues, so at least feel comforted that you're going through the same stuff everyone does.
How do you like the new bar?
What you're experiencing are typical novice lifter issues, so at least feel comforted that you're going through the same stuff everyone does.
How do you like the new bar?
That is good to hear. It's been quite a challenging thing to take on. One might think the kettlebell and barbell strength training background would help me in this endeavor... In some ways it definitely does, but other ways it seems to work against me. Most notably in tension/relaxation balance. I have to learn to reduce tension than increase it!
The new bar is awesome. I'll add some review notes on the original thread about it.
Advenedizo
Level 1 Valued Member
I used to catch the clean with much wider feet, and that helped me with my balance. I know it is unorthodox but some good lifters do. Have you tried front squating with a little wider stance? How does it feel?
I mention this because you seem uncomfortable with your feet. You keep lifting the toes in your right foot.
I mention this because you seem uncomfortable with your feet. You keep lifting the toes in your right foot.
Good catch on the right foot movement! I hadn't noticed that.
Getting a proper lifting surface is going to be a big improvement. Now that I have the gym room layout into something workable, the floor is the next thing to do.
I think the stance I'm in is what my knees like the best, but I'll try wider and see how it feels.
Thank you for the input!
Advenedizo
Level 1 Valued Member
What I do not understand is that you are able to deadlift about 130 kg, you swing the 32 kg easy but perform a snatch with a weight you are most likely able to front raise.
Maybe you should be posting your failures instead?
Maybe you should be posting your failures instead?
100% agree! I can't explain it. I feel like I'm making glacial progress and I'm OK with that, but it would be nice to have a breakthrough. What are your thoughts?
Advenedizo
Level 1 Valued Member
I have been thinking, and watching the videos again, and I might have another suggestion.
When I learned the lifts I was told that the bar was supposed to raise in a straight upwards line, and it was me who had to move down and under. I think that I see in your videos that the bar has a back traveling movement when it is weightless. It looks that you try to get the bar where you want it, instead of getting yourself where you are supposed to be. This is maybe why you loose your balance, because you have to "brake" the bar. When you push the bar forward you get the reaction in your body backwards. There is no way that works with your bodyweight or heavier in the bar.
If you take a video from the side will be very easy to see.
When I learned the lifts I was told that the bar was supposed to raise in a straight upwards line, and it was me who had to move down and under. I think that I see in your videos that the bar has a back traveling movement when it is weightless. It looks that you try to get the bar where you want it, instead of getting yourself where you are supposed to be. This is maybe why you loose your balance, because you have to "brake" the bar. When you push the bar forward you get the reaction in your body backwards. There is no way that works with your bodyweight or heavier in the bar.
If you take a video from the side will be very easy to see.
Yes, I think I see what you mean about the bar path. I will try to get some videos from the side (as you can see I'm in a home gym setting... my regular gym is still closed.)
The "getting under the bar" has been the hardest thing for me. There are several aspects to it, and it sounds a bit like making excuses but I really just try to see why what seems easy for other new weightlifters is so much more difficult for me. 1) I'm learning this skill at 52 yrs old, and speed is a little harder to come by at this age, 2) kettlebell training has taught me that the primary thing is to use hip and leg power to elevate the weight as opposed to moving the body under it, so that's my natural focus, 3) barbell strength training has taught me slow movement and tension, and this seems to be the enemy of quick movement under the bar, 4) the barbell snatch overhead position is totally new -- nothing at all like kettlebell overhead, or even any kind of barbell press!
I will think about this "get yourself where you are supposed to be" with a vertical bar path, rather than get the bar where I want it.
Thank you for the suggestion, much appreciated!
Here are the same lifts from the side view from today's session for further critique.
I hear you on that, but since it was on the program I'm following I went with it.
Both snatch and jerk felt better with the "chin down" cue!
I see my hips rise early on the first pull for the snatch. Some reps were better than others.
I hear you on that, but since it was on the program I'm following I went with it.
Both snatch and jerk felt better with the "chin down" cue!
I see my hips rise early on the first pull for the snatch. Some reps were better than others.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Advenedizo
Level 1 Valued Member
Those were better. You do not seem as tired here. Is that a snatch PR?
Thank you! Yes it helps to be fresh.
I power snatched 110 lbs back in February 2020, and power snatched 100 lbs yesterday. But yes, 85 lbs is a PR for an actual snatch... although technically as I catch it above parallel that may be a power snatch also. One of these days snatch will exceed power snatch, as it's supposed to! I will celebrate that.
james_1127
Level 6 Valued Member
When we learned to Olympic lift, glenn (pendlay) used to have us start from a very high hang position (its essentially a 2" type movement, just flex the hips slightly then pull) his reasoning was always the issue you're having on the pulls and getting under fast enough... when you pull from the knees or ground you can muscle and generate enough momentum to wedge yourself under (hence in the first video your feet flare some, but not bad)... when you pull from that high position there is no choice but for you to sink under the bar...
Glenn was admit about teaching Olifts from that high hang, knees, then ground for that reason... novice lifters never started from the floor
Other advice on here is spot on... just expanding
Glenn was admit about teaching Olifts from that high hang, knees, then ground for that reason... novice lifters never started from the floor
Other advice on here is spot on... just expanding
Yes, great point... one of my favorite new lift variations is "tall clean" and "tall snatch", even less than the 2" movement but using a light weight, usually just the bar... basically drop under it from standing. Definitely makes you move fast. I can see that might have been a better place to start!
randyh
Level 4 Valued Member
The USAW teaching progression these days (I teach both the level 1 and level 2 certs for USAW) starts with hangs from the top down and uses the power receiving positions. It also introduces early on the lift off (first pull) from floor to knee. These positions are important to practice as they function not only to groove the key parts of the lifts, but you will find them useful from time to time to strengthen deficits and technical errors in the complete pull.
Bar path is key. Contrary to another post in this thread the bar should move back towards you right off the floor. Here is link to former national record holder Zelyx Rivera with a dartfish element tracing the bar path. This is about as good as it gets. I use this video in my coaching to show my athletes how the bar must stay in the vertical column of air between the ball of the foot and the heel to be an efficient lift. That's a tough bit to master.
And keep it light, accurate and fast for awhile. No one learns to weightlift going heavy. Our super heavyweight from Sydney and Athens, Shane Hammon was a legit 1000lb squatter (IPF world record holder) at age 19 when he decided to switch to weightlifting. He started with a broomstick and empty bar like everyone else. Well, like everyone else should.
If you want some more feedback, feel free to message me. Because of Covid, (and my gym going away as a result) I am doing remote instruction at the moment via True Coach if that is of any interest.
Bar path is key. Contrary to another post in this thread the bar should move back towards you right off the floor. Here is link to former national record holder Zelyx Rivera with a dartfish element tracing the bar path. This is about as good as it gets. I use this video in my coaching to show my athletes how the bar must stay in the vertical column of air between the ball of the foot and the heel to be an efficient lift. That's a tough bit to master.
And keep it light, accurate and fast for awhile. No one learns to weightlift going heavy. Our super heavyweight from Sydney and Athens, Shane Hammon was a legit 1000lb squatter (IPF world record holder) at age 19 when he decided to switch to weightlifting. He started with a broomstick and empty bar like everyone else. Well, like everyone else should.
If you want some more feedback, feel free to message me. Because of Covid, (and my gym going away as a result) I am doing remote instruction at the moment via True Coach if that is of any interest.
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Thank you, @randyh ! I like what you say about keeping it light, accurate, and fast. It feels like I need a lot more of those reps.
I'll message you for more - this sounds like a great opportunity!
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Top down from the hang + floor to knee is how I learned it from Jim Schmidt.
I don't think he let me attempt a full (power) snatch from the floor until like week 6-8 or so.
Perhaps it was sooner, but it felt like forever...
And that was still with no appreciable weight.
I remember being excited the first time I got to use a full size 10 kg plate.
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