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Barbell Front Squat vs High bar back squat

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Zercher's are awesome exercise. So are Front Squats. Between the two I like Zercher with sandbags, either cradled or bearhug.

I normally backsquat high bar, but in my opinion low bar might promote a more solid movement pattern. There's research that shows no real difference in overall muscular activation and the only difference being amount of total weight possible. I feel like low bar has more even recruitment of hamstring, glute, quad, and the more upright you get, the less the glute is activated, more quad.
 
Because, as we all know, it’s totally possible to lift more weight without “activating” more muscle. Cuz “levers”. Or maybe magnets. I dunno.
 
....also provides isometric work for the arms in a way that the back squat (high or low bar) and front squat do not.

I tried to read about the Zercher Squat with an open mind. I don't see it either though. This was the only point that was in favor of the Zercher based on effectiveness in that long post.

Everything else was based on negatives to a traditional squat (need a squat rack, ability to bail...). Bailing isn't that hard if you set the safeties correctly and lean forward to set the weight on the safeties.

I don't think everyone bases their workouts on the worst case scenario. If there is a more convincing reason based on effectiveness it is not apparent.
 
This article pretty much sums it up: 9 Reasons Athletes Should Do Front Squats

The article is in favor of incorporating front squats but not replacing back squats.

While the back squat will always be the cornerstone of any lifter’s program, the front squat can and should be used in order to achieve specific aims in the gym, whether it’s teaching better squat technique, improving thoracic function, or more closely simulating the movement you are trying to replicate on the field.
 
The article is in favor of incorporating front squats but not replacing back squats.

In my opinion, the only real advantage of back squatting is that it allows you to move more weight. Which, if you are not a strength athlete, is mostly irrelevant.

In fact, if moving the highest possible load is a priority, low bar wide sumo back squats would be a better choice than high bar back squats.

But, I'm digressing...

Front squats require perfect posture, or the bar will fall to the ground.

Front squats mimic the athletic position, which may be important. To be fair, extremely upright high back squats can do that too.

Front squats work the upper back like crazy. Which, once again, it may be important (for me, it is).

Front squats are needed if you are interested in the quick lifts.

Front squats elicit a remarkably muscular response while using less weight than a back squat. Which, in my opinion, is a plus for those not interested in moving maximal loads.

Increasing your front squat will improve your back squat. The other way around is seldom true.

Those are a few reasons, among many others, which make me pretty partial to front squats.

I know I'm going to catch some flak for this but... my favorite squat is the double kettlebell front squat plus weighted vest. And my favorite hinge, by far, is the double kettlebell clean (very heavy).

But I'll admit I'm biased, since I'm a lifelong martial artist first and foremost.
 
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I tried to read about the Zercher Squat with an open mind. I don't see it either though. This was the only point that was in favor of the Zercher based on effectiveness in that long post.

Everything else was based on negatives to a traditional squat (need a squat rack, ability to bail...). Bailing isn't that hard if you set the safeties correctly and lean forward to set the weight on the safeties.

I don't think everyone bases their workouts on the worst case scenario. If there is a more convincing reason based on effectiveness it is not apparent.

Strictly for training legs, Zercher is not optimal. But it does teach the same tension as a front squat, and it absolutely attacks the pecs, anterior delts, traps, and biceps in a very useful movement pattern.

I would use them more often but since I train upper/lower in a superset, I tend toward squat variations that don't smoke my upper body at the same time.

That said, I am not a fan of these with a barbell, the crook of the elbow is not a hand.
 
In my opinion, the only real advantage of back squatting is that it allows you to move more weight. Which, if you are not a strength athlete, is mostly irrelevant.

In fact, if moving the highest possible load is a priority, low bar wide sumo back squats would be a better choice than high bar back squats.

But, I'm digressing...

Front squats require perfect posture, or the bar will fall to the ground.

Front squats mimic the athletic position, which may be important. To be fair, extremely upright high back squats can do that too.

Front squats work the upper back like crazy. Which, once again, it may be important (for me, it is).

Front squats are needed if you are interested in the quick lifts.

Front squats elicit a remarkably muscular response while using less weight than a back squat. Which, in my opinion, is a plus for those not interested in moving maximal loads.

Increasing your front squat will improve your back squat. The other way around is seldom true.

Those are a few reasons, among many others, which make me pretty partial to front squats.

I know I'm going to catch some flak for this but... my favorite squat is the double kettlebell front squat plus weighted vest. And my favorite hinge, by far, is the double kettlebell clean (very heavy).

But I'll admit I'm biased, since I'm a lifelong martial artist first and foremost.

You may have just convinced me to go with barbell front squats the next time I program a squat. The main reason, in my case, would be that my t-spine mobility and strength is poor, and I want to challenge that and improve / overcome it. Overhead squats also come to mind, though I don't think I currently have the t-spine and hip mobility to get those done, and obviously the load would be even less. I'm not a powerlifter, but I do want to be working with relatively heavy loads on my primary movements.
 
Front squats elicit a remarkably muscular response while using less weight than a back squat. Which, in my opinion, is a plus for those not interested in moving maximal loads.
Curious to know more about this, why it is, to what degree, etc.
 
You may have just convinced me to go with barbell front squats the next time I program a squat. The main reason, in my case, would be that my t-spine mobility and strength is poor, and I want to challenge that and improve / overcome it. Overhead squats also come to mind, though I don't think I currently have the t-spine and hip mobility to get those done, and obviously the load would be even less. I'm not a powerlifter, but I do want to be working with relatively heavy loads on my primary movements.

Good choice! You won't regret it.
 
Curious to know more about this, why it is, to what degree, etc.

Leverages and angles, mostly.

Since you are forced to keep an extremely upright posture, your knees have to move forward to let your torso sink between your legs.

This makes your abs, upper back and quads work like crazy (compared to a more hip/hamstring dominant squat). The more vertical your torso is, the more quad dominant the movement becomes.

That's why low bar squats with a very angled torso and almost vertical shins are almost a deadlift with the bar on your back. Which is not bad in itself, mind you.

And that's why stiff legged deadlifts or even snatch grip deadlifts are a way better hamstring developers than regular pulls. You need less weight to elicit a muscular response, because you are doing the exercise harder on purpose.

The "optimal" way to pull would probably be sumo or conventional, the "optimal" way to squat would probably be the low bar wide sumo squat. The ones that allows you to move the most weight because the leverages are close to ideal.

But that comes at a cost: C.N.S. tends to be fried and recovery takes longer.
 
I tried to read about the Zercher Squat with an open mind. I don't see it either though. This was the only point that was in favor of the Zercher based on effectiveness in that long post.

Everything else was based on negatives to a traditional squat (need a squat rack, ability to bail...). Bailing isn't that hard if you set the safeties correctly and lean forward to set the weight on the safeties.

I don't think everyone bases their workouts on the worst case scenario. If there is a more convincing reason based on effectiveness it is not apparent.

It certainly wasn't my intention to try to make the back squat sound like a death trap; I just wanted to illustrate that the Zercher squat is not without its plus points as I feel it would be a shame to discount it altogether.

Biceps activation aside, being able to utilise a 'decent' weights without access to a squat rack or stands is the other main point in its favour, which I think is reason enough to justify the inclusion of Zercher squats in a strength program when resources are limited.

I'd definitely prefer to back squat/front squat but if all I have is a bar and some floor it's nice to have an option other than air squats or pistols.
 
I disagree. I find front squats way more useful for almost any athlete that doesn't compete in maximal strength sports.

I know quite a few people who struggle with front squats because of wrist mobility. And none of them are keen on wasting time trying to be able to do it. I also think back squat are more useful for general development: it engages more muscle over greater range of motion.
 
I know quite a few people who struggle with front squats because of wrist mobility. And none of them are keen on wasting time trying to be able to do it.

Which can be fixed using straps, crossed-arms or even zombie stance.

I also think back squat are more useful for general development: it engages more muscle over greater range of motion.

I disagree. Front squats makes going ATG way more easier (same reason goblet squats are taught).

Anyway, back squats are wonderful and allows you to move a heavier load (low bar squats even more). The specific variation used is not relevant as long the athlete is squatting.
 
The Zercher can be superior to the back squat in many ways...the reverse is also true however. Once again, this is like saying a hammer is better than a screwdriver. For what job?

The Zercher is ideal for

-Strongmen, wrestlers, grapplers/Martial Artists, Fireman. The lift more closely mimics how these folks actually pick up many implements: Stones, sandbags, people. A lack of direct spinal loading is also nothing to sneeze about for athletes who can't afford to have a tired back, like those mentioned above.

-Armor Building, as Dan John put it. Internal strength, or anaconda strength, developed from holding the bar in a compromised position that is a unique strain to the breathing and midsection. As far as the "discomfort", enduring pain is a pretty beneficial attribute for most athletes/hard living types. It is not injury or bodily destruction occurring, but armor building.

-A unique blend of musculature worked simultaneously. Not many useful lifts require the biceps, upper back, shoulders, chest, midsection, back and legs to be activated simultaneously. Thus the Zercher is very ideal for a minimalist training program, like the Modified DeLorme. This is why Christian Thibadeau (agree with him or not, he is a pretty prolific strength/coach) has sang it's praises and wrote this program here, which nearly cover's the whole body in just two lifts.

The Two-Exercise Workout Plan for Size | T Nation

-Teaching the proper squat movement. According to Louie Simmons, using the Zercher is the easiest and best way.

-Addressing those with certain mobility shortcomings. A guy with bad shoulders who has trouble back squatting because of the bars position will most assuredly be okay with the zercher, alas a long limbed lifter who has trouble reaching depth may also be better off training the zercher. Those with back problems where spinal compression is not tolerable, same deal.

-Can be done without a rack, ideal for a home lifter without the space/money/desire to have a squat rack in their home. Or useful at gyms that for some reason would not contain such an essential apparatus.

-And as far as reinventing the wheel, I have found that squat racks came into invention around the same time as the Zercher squat, the 1930's. The squat is actually a mutation of the deep knee bend, which was a light lift done on the toes as squat racks weren't available until Steinborn came and started rolling 500 lbs. from the floor to his back. It then became popular. Thus, both lifts are early incarnations of the same beast.

Of course the Back Squat is great but it is never the only option...unless you want to be a competitive powerlifter. Once again, different strokes for different folks.

P
 
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Because, as we all know, it’s totally possible to lift more weight without “activating” more muscle. Cuz “levers”. Or maybe magnets. I dunno.

I'm probably whistling in the wind responding to this, but my goal is to provide information to the rest of the forum members who have an interest in this topic as opposed to trying to convince you.

First, I owe a "thank you" to Mark Rippetoe. I've criticized him about his views on the low bar squat and he told me I was wrong. He then sent me a free copy of his book and told me to read the squat chapter to see why I was wrong. So thanks for the book. I did read the squat chapter, and it is probably one of the most detailed explanations of the squat I've ever read. Mark clearly has a passion for this stuff. The other reason I need to thank him is that while researching this issue, I've learned a ton of information about the squat - stuff I probably would not have learned otherwise.

So, after reading the squat chapter, have I changed my mind? No, and I'll explain why.

Mark analyzes the squat based on moment arms. He states that placing the bar lower on the back allows us to use a more horizontal back angle. This more horizontal back angle, in turn, creates a longer moment arm at the hip, which requires the hamstrings to work harder in the low-bar squat. From a pure physics standpoint, he is correct. However, things are different when you look at this from a biomechanics standpoint. I'll come back to this.

One thing that Mark does not mention is that placing the bar lower on the back, while lengthening the moment arm at the hips, shortens the moment arm for the knee extensors - the quads. This creates a leverage advantage for the quads, which means the quads now need to produce less force to move the same amount of weight. This one of the reasons why most people can lift more weight with the low-bar squat. The quads are able to move more weight by producing the same amount of force as in a high-bar squat, more or less. So yes, despite the sarcastic leverage comment from @Bill Been the low-bar squat does in fact create a leverage advantage for the quads. Magnetic fields are optional.

But what about the longer moment arm for the hamstrings? This is where biomechanics comes in. If the hamstrings only function was to extend the hip, then I wouldn't be typing this post. Mark would be 100% correct and the low-bar squat would be superior in all respects. However, the hamstrings cross two joints - at the hip and the knee. They are responsible for hip extension and knee flexion. Knee flexion is when you bring your heel to your butt and knee extension is when you move your heel away from your butt, i.e., straighten your leg. The quads are responsible for extension. This means that the hamstrings and the quads are antagonists - their actions conflict with each other. What would happen if your quads and your hamstrings contracted maximally at the same time? Nothing. Your leg would not move at all. Fortunately, our nervous system has found a way around this problem so that the two muscle groups can work together without interfering with each other - it's what allows us to walk. However, even with this nervous system magic, the two muscle groups still cannot maximally contract at the same time. For purposes of the squat, the quads are the prime movers doing the brunt of the work. The hamstrings function to stabilize the knee. Near the end of the lift when the lifter is close to standing straight up, the quads' work is mostly done and the hamstrings can kick in a bit more to extend the hip and allow the lifter to stand up straight. So there is no question that the hamstrings are involved in the squat, and they are probably involved a bit more in the low-bar squat given the more horizontal back position. However, the realities of biomechanics prevent the hamstrings from being involved to such a degree as to make the squat a good hamstring exercise.

But what about the fact that your entire body is supporting more weight in the low bar squat? Leverage and biomechanics cannot magically make the bar lighter. This is true, but how much more weight are we talking about? I've said this before and I'll say it again - most lifters can use about 5 to 10% more weight in the low-bar squat than in the high-bar. So, if your normal working weight on the high-bar squat is about 200 lbs., you should be able to use about 10 to 20 lbs. more in the low-bar. This additional weight is shared by the quads (which have a leverage advantage), the lower back, the glutes, and to a small extent the hamstrings. These are the strongest muscles in our bodies. How much stronger are these muscles going to get if they share the work of moving an additional 10 to 20 lbs.?

But what about the fact that some lifters experience soreness in the back of their legs after a squat session? I've experience this myself and I squat high-bar only. The question is whether experiencing "soreness in the back of the leg" indicates soreness in the hamstring, which would mean they worked hard, or soreness in some other muscle that is located near the back of the leg? It's the second one. The adductor magnus is a large muscle that contributes to hip extension. It is likely that the soreness felt after a heavy squat session is coming from the adductor magnus rather than the hamstrings. Adductors

If you like to low-bar squat for general strength training, go for it. I have no problem with that. However, if you're using the low-bar squat to strengthen your hamstrings, you're using the wrong exercise. With the possible exception of the box squat, no squat is ever going to be a good hamstring exercise. Period.
 
Ah well, my knees don't much like it though so I think I will content myself w/ parallel. I'm pushing up on 70, have had 2 surgeries on one knee, and would like to walk without a walker at 90...
Adjusting your stance can help you find a good and deep squat.

-S-
 
For purposes of the squat, the quads are the prime movers doing the brunt of the work. The hamstrings function to stabilize the knee. Near the end of the lift when the lifter is close to standing straight up, the quads' work is mostly done and the hamstrings can kick in a bit more to extend the hip and allow the lifter to stand up straight. So there is no question that the hamstrings are involved in the squat, and they are probably involved a bit more in the low-bar squat given the more horizontal back position. However, the realities of biomechanics prevent the hamstrings from being involved to such a degree as to make the squat a good hamstring exercise.

I'm trying to get my head around this. I've always thought of things in what are probably way too oversimplified of terms, namely that the HBBS is a quad-dominant exercise with the hamstrings / glutes / lower back serving secondary functions and the LBBS is a hamstring / glute-dominant exercise with the quads and lower back playing secondary roles. It's hard for me to think of the LBBS as still being a quad-dominant exercise, mostly just because of what my muscular recruitment feels like during the exercise, and where I'm sore afterwards. From now on, I should think of the LBBS as quad-dominant, just to a lesser degree than the HBBS?
 
I'm trying to get my head around this. I've always thought of things in what are probably way too oversimplified of terms, namely that the HBBS is a quad-dominant exercise with the hamstrings / glutes / lower back serving secondary functions and the LBBS is a hamstring / glute-dominant exercise with the quads and lower back playing secondary roles. It's hard for me to think of the LBBS as still being a quad-dominant exercise, mostly just because of what my muscular recruitment feels like during the exercise, and where I'm sore afterwards. From now on, I should think of the LBBS as quad-dominant, just to a lesser degree than the HBBS?

Just take a look at the lower body of the vast majority of the powerlifting community: they generally have big quads but waaaaaay more developed hamstrings and glutes.

Conversely, most olympic weightlifters have giant, enormous quads and a way less developed hamstrings and glutes.

A low bar squat is kind of a deadlift with the bar on your back. It makes sense that works basically the same muscles almost the same way.

On the other hand, Li Xiaojun back squats rather upright. It is almost a front squat with the bar on his back.

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The back angle changes everything.
 
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