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I perform Strength aerobics 1-2x a week and press on those days.
Kettlebell Fundamental exercises
- Thread starter Patrik Novák
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I perform Strength aerobics 1-2x a week and press on those days.
barrak
Level 6 Valued Member
Those who had negative experiences, or simply are overcautious like me, have the option to move away from getups or modify them.
For example, I moved exclusively to heavy sandbag getups. However, once my right should is healthy again, I intend to use Brett Jones' wonderful variation of press/getup where you press the bell at every stage of the getup.
This way I use lighter and safer bells, get more shoulder mobility drills, and I'm still fresh enough to top off the session with heavy sandbag getups. Eventually, heavy and safe kettlebell getups are bound to follow with this forced patience strength gaining path.
Deleted member 316
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I'll be back to the tgu/press soon as I'll be moving indoors for training. I tgu to the kneeling position, lower the bell to the rack position, stand up, lunge back to kneeling, press, and get down. Switch sides and repeat
the hansenator
Level 6 Valued Member
That looks like a good low basement ceiling option.
Deleted member 316
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It is what it is and it works. The cool thing is I get to do tgu's and incorporate a press too. Two birds with one bell.
Patrik Novák
Level 3 Valued Member
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Except if your footing slips. I have done many TGU to technical failure (90% sure I can't get another rep) and even included Drop Sets in with my TGU. I've never had an issue where the load was too heavy, but I have had my lead foot slip out more than once, risking not only eating the KB, but potential groin pull and who knows what else. Granted, every time that happened I was training outdoors with five finger footwear. I should have been wearing cleats.
When a heavy load, held overhead with one hand gets out of line, a lot of stuff can head South in a hurry.
Deleted member 316
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I once had an issue with a bamboo mat of sorts. It seemed like a good idea compared to the gravel driveway. I repeat once. Slip slopping away and I didn't even get anywhere. Never again
marvinthemartian
Level 5 Valued Member
Are there any programs from Pavel beside S&S and PM from ETK that use the TGU as it's main grind/"press"?
Adam R Mundorf
Level 6 Valued Member
I'm thinking really hard right now and the answer I think is no.
Denny Phillips
Level 6 Valued Member
Upon first learning about TGU's I did as Pavel and Dan John recommended and used a shoe and then a half-full cup of water. It gave me a chance to really "feel" the process and what the anatomy was doing. Being cautious I advanced to a 25# bell and stayed there for a considerable amount of time, feeling. When changing to the 16kg I spent a great deal of time with the roll to elbow, something that continues to this day when performing a session of TGU's. Then came the 24, all the while trying discern the cost/benefit. The 24 was the end point for me although I did 1/2 get-ups with the 32.
The process up to and including the 24 did great things for my shoulder mobility. As I've mentioned in the past I'm a collegiate defensive backs coach and throw a lot. For 20+ years I never had to ice or much of anything after practices, then one night watching practice video I realized that I was "throwing darts" and my range of motion was compromised. The TGU's did more than anything to rectify that and I can throw with a complete throwing motion once again and there is juice behind it. Things often work until they don't. TGU's with the 32 ceased to give me the things I wanted and the thought of making a mistake held no fascination for me.
16's work very well for me, thank you. 1/2 get-ups with the 24 as well although the roll to elbow with the 32 still enters the picture on occasion. More often than not thoughtful naked get-ups are just the tonic for me.
Could I reach (or have reached) Simple? There is little doubt in my mind. After realizing that I no longer had to.
The process up to and including the 24 did great things for my shoulder mobility. As I've mentioned in the past I'm a collegiate defensive backs coach and throw a lot. For 20+ years I never had to ice or much of anything after practices, then one night watching practice video I realized that I was "throwing darts" and my range of motion was compromised. The TGU's did more than anything to rectify that and I can throw with a complete throwing motion once again and there is juice behind it. Things often work until they don't. TGU's with the 32 ceased to give me the things I wanted and the thought of making a mistake held no fascination for me.
16's work very well for me, thank you. 1/2 get-ups with the 24 as well although the roll to elbow with the 32 still enters the picture on occasion. More often than not thoughtful naked get-ups are just the tonic for me.
Could I reach (or have reached) Simple? There is little doubt in my mind. After realizing that I no longer had to.
ShawnyUT
Level 7 Valued Member
I like this Denny. Coincidentally, I revisited TGUs today with 16kg during my warm-up. It was great, and I enjoyed it. First TGU I’ve done in about a year...just like riding a bike.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Hmmm... It didn't really seem dangerous to me doing the TGUs with the first level bell of only 16kg. It really didn't seem dangerous at all. Instead, it felt like an adventure in movement. I like the analogy of it to a Karate kata.
I don't think we can escape some measure of risk entirely when lifting weights, unless maybe we're talking about weight machines. By choosing a kettlebell as one's tool over weight machines or bodyweight, we're already taking a bigger risk than with those other ones. Having said all this, my only real injury lifting weights of any serious nature was done doing a bodyweight-only exercise believe it or not! When in doubt use a light kettlebell for the TGUs!
Sure, there are safer ways to train with a kettlebell, but I think there is a tradeoff. I find myself doing a lot of Clean and Press with a kettlebell these days instead of my normal S&S routine, but I'm definitely NOT in as good shape as I was when my S&S was more regular! The TGU and the Swing are bigger movements covering more muscles, more moving parts, more cardio than the C&P, for example. C&P however is more compact and safer I think than those other moves.
There are a lot of alternative workouts presented on this website. One interesting one is of using just the double Clean and Press as one's single move to stay in shape, another one is about just using the Snatch (and some good time spent walking outside too). The basic 6 moves are taught for a reason and there is a "The Works" programme for them as well as "Complexes" involving strings of several moves.
Why something (a bit harder than one might expect) like S&S might be chosen as the go-to program for beginners and even for more experienced people makes sense to me coming from a judo and kendo perspective. It's fine to start out learning things that are "okay" and you can get your exercise etc with, but doing things that work faster and develop your skills quicker, better, and make you stronger more quickly, might be harder to do and involve more precautions, but are worth it since you're doing "the right thing".
We're limiting ourselves to kettlebells in the basic concept underlining S&S (and some other kettlebell based programmes), so given that the tool is going to be a kettlebell, what are the best things to do with it and how? One answer is S&S, and there are others of course, but S&S seems like it promotes a pretty steep learning and strength curve! The movements are indeed hard and challenging, but at least there are only 2 to master! We could start with easier things but then get stronger and more skillful with the tool more slowly.
The kettlebell is a compromise. If used in a way to make it "better" than other kinds of training, then it's things like the TGU and the swing that stand out the most. Clean and Press is better done with a barbell, of course, since you can load more weight onto yourself more conveniently, same for squats, same for cleans. Kettlebells can be seen to have an ergonomic aspect to them in regards to some movements like the TGU and presses, but it's really the Swing where they shine the most - power can be developed quite effectively with kettlebell swings in way that it doesn't seem so convenient with other tools. The rack position is quite ergonomic with a kettlebell.
Basically, the kettlebell is great for asymmetrical, chaotic strength and endurance. For absolute strength it absolutely isn't! To get the most "chaos" and "asymmetry" we go for moves like the Swings and the TGU. The TGU is an asymmetrical and "chaotic" move par excellence! If we're not interested in the kettlebell for this kind of strength I don't see why one would stick with kettlebells, maybe just the swings only, I don't know.
But in any case it's the asymmetry and the chaotic nature of the strength we can develop with S&S that makes it so great, and makes it better than a lot of other things we/I do or can do with this tool.
Eric Wilson
Level 6 Valued Member
For me, the jump from 16kg to 24kg felt very dangerous -- in hindsight, I probably should not have done it, given my lack of size and strength. (Despite owning the 16kg for TGU, I was nowhere near pressing it).
I'll acknowledge that I'm a little bitter about S&S. As a n00b to strength training, I bought the hype, poorly evaluated the risk, and spent six months on a program that omits some major movements*. I'm glad that it works for some people, and I appreciate much about the StrongFirst community, and I really enjoy training with kettlebells (clean, press, double front squat, swing, and complexes). But I'm done with the TGU, and I'll continue to cringe every time I see S&S recommended as a first program for beginners.
* The idea that the TGU improves your press is interesting, and probably true for some definition of "improves".
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I'm curious as to how you train. Do you put the clean and press together (as I do) or do you train them separately? What complexes do you use?...
Eric Wilson
Level 6 Valued Member
My favorite three complexes:
Armor Building Complex
Humane Burpee (you can google it)
This one: (it doesn't have a name -- I call it the 216, because you do six rounds, six exercises, six reps)
I often do 3x8-ish with 60 seconds rest of a push, a pull, double front squats, and then some swings -- 3x15 or 5x10 or something. Sometimes I'll use my the double clean as the pull, instead of pull-ups or rows, even though a clean isn't a true pull. Sometimes I'll do clean and press together, because it's enjoyable. I'll typically do complexes just one day of the week.
Currently I'm doing rite-of-passage, though, so I'm doing exactly what that prescribes three days a week, then double front squats, carries, and miscellaneous stuff on two other days.
That covers most of what I have done lately. I'd like to get a barbell and plates for deadlifts, but I haven't made that investment yet.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Thank you. That is informative and is giving me things to think about.
I'm finding myself getting into a routine where I do five sets of ROP style clean and press ladders with a 24 followed by the TGU sequence from S&S with a 32. I guess I'm doing it for a few reasons:
1. C&P is safer, more compact than swings - no fear of letting the bell fly out of my hand. I also have some physiological peculiarities that make swings a bit uncomfortable for me - probably from decades of "big pull" judo training!
2. The C&P sequence is a lighter workout than the S&S swings (because I don't always want to work out as hard as S&S prescribes, I guess I'm a bit lazy!), although still providing a decent "cardio" workout, and a measure of a "big pull" kind of hinge movement, activation of biceps a bit etc...
3. The C&P help with TGU strength and control.
4. The C&P develop a kind of upper body and shoulder mobility and strength that I value, and they are fun for me for some reason I don't quite fathom - maybe the aspect of "catching" it in the rack position - all the movement involved?
5. I prize the TGU sequence for the full body multi directional, "chaotic strength", asymmetrical workout that it gives me.
Compared with when I was doing S&S consistently, I think my current thing is overall less effective except in terms of shoulder development and pressing strength, where it is better. But, it still gets my heart rate up quite significantly (if not as significantly as in S&S) and even if it's weaker in terms of pulling strength and power, it's still "okay" in this regard, compensated for by it being an easier to do workout and clearly more strength in the pushing department. I used to be worried about overdoing the overhead press by mixing these two moves together, but for some reason my shoulders are fine with it.
I think after hitting the baseline achievements (like Timeless Simple or ROP or whatever) it's up to us to tweak things to our own needs, peculiarities of our bodies and tastes. Some moves I just really don't like doing, like the goblet squat (or any squat!) I have very long legs for my size, so I just don't like squats! Awkward! My legs are already strong anyhow! It is kind of the same for my grip - after decades of judo my strong grip isn't going anywhere, even after 6 months of quarantine! All that judo pulling needs to be balanced with more of an emphasis on pushing.
patterner
Level 5 Valued Member
That's really interesting, I might have to try that sometime...though I really *need* the swings as my cardio is crap, I do love the C&P.
I love both of these, along with @Geoff Neupert's Dry Fighting Weight.
Dan John did an Easy Strength for kettlebells on his podcast that I'd to try at some point once I have a pull up bar:
DC&P 3x3
Goblet/Double Front SQ: 10 GSQ or "Rule of 10" (5x2, 3x3, 2x5) DFSQ
C&P (not double) 2x5
Pullup variety
TGU/Ab roller/Farmer walk (recommended alternating the Ab Roller and Farmer Walk
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