Nutrition Gaining weight (?) for barbell work

[Sean M]

I'm focusing on barbell work in 2019.

At 6'0", I'm at 215 and about 23% bodyfat (37" waist). My heaviest, before training of any kind, was 230 and 44" waist (~30% body fat). My leanest, after S&S and TSC training, was 197 and 36" waist (~18% body fat) a year ago. I was a skinny/lanky kid and teen through college (like, 155 going into college and I lost the "freshman 15", which I couldn't afford to lose, when I joined the rowing team), but have an office job and typical suburban family life, so I ballooned up in my 20s but have been in "fitness" in my 30s so far. I have/feel more meat on my back and shoulders, my waist and face are trimmer, but otherwise I still have pretty skinny arms and legs. People are surprised I weigh 215, it's probably mostly deep visceral fat unfortunately (I burned off most of my surface fluff rather easily initially).

They say mass moves mass. Do I need to gain more scale weight (may inevitably come with some waist circumference) on this frame to work up to squat mid-high 200s for reps, 2x bodyweigth deadlift (400-430), etc? If so, how best to do that at my age (32) and otherwise-sedentary lifestyle without gaining too much on my waist? I don't want to see 40" ever again.

 

[Antti]

For those numbers, no you do not.

If you desired to be competitive in powerlifting on a higher level, then yes. But even then it would be mostly, if not just lean mass.

If you're a novice in the barbell lifts, just eating and training the lifts, both in a smart manner, will add lean mass.

 

[Sean M]

@Antti Thanks.

It seems the context for the “eat Eat EAT!” messaging is 155-pound 16 year-old high schoolers (who indeed do need to eat along with lift, because their low bodyweight is a limiting factor in strength gains, plus they are growing anyway regardless of lifting). For an already-grown man of normal build, my assumption is there's plenty of capacity on that frame to build up to decent (more than adequate for most) strength levels without gaining much extra mass on the scale (though fat mass would go down and muscle mass up, so the same weight would be on a tighter/fitter frame). I'm curious if that assumption is correct.

I do plan to start eating breakfast at least, to start (I stopped a few years ago and have a lazy 16/8 fasting thing going since then). That may be enough calories in itself to fuel the extra effort. If not, I'll add some bacon and eggs before bed or some handfuls of almonds during the day.

 

[Antti]

I agree with your assumption. Your plan looks good. Make sure you get enough animal protein. Some people estimate their intake wrong. But it's no rocket science and really easy to take care of.

 

[BrianCF]

Sean, awesome job on your goals this year. Get the snatch one. You can do it.

If I were doing a barbell program, I'd do 5/3/1 vs. Starting Strength. As you said, the eat, eat eat thing Gallon of Milk a Day stuff will just fatten you up.

I like how Wendler wants you to lift and train for performance and strength/being an athlete vs. the strongman who thinks the word cardio is Spanish.

Here's the problem, as you get older, your metabolism slows down. If you eat big to get big, no problem, but you'll see 40' in no time. So just be smart about it..

Use snatches for conditioning.

"Some handfuls of almonds" leads to a LOT of calories.

I'm an old geezer, soon to be 50. I ran the barbell strength for a couple of years after discovering kettlebells and really enjoyed it. Alas, you can only get so strong. Pressed 155 (Kettlebell Presses carried over well), Benched 225 (pathetic) Squatted 315 x 10 and deadlifted 365 at 190 lbs. Guess what happened? I got injured.

Not when I did the 315 x 10, but 2 days later using light 20 kg kettlebells. Sacrum went pop. So enjoy the ride but be careful.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Do not eat for strength unless you are underweight to begin with. At your current weight to height you could probably hit your listed goals without adding anything.

Tho an extra 10 might help it shouldn't be put on any closer to your belt line than your quads.

 

[Snowman]

If your goal is to lift a certain amount relative to your bodyweight (like a 2xBW deadlift), then the only time I would see weight as being an issue is if you're very under-muscled or over-fat. It doesn't sound like you're either, and looking at your body weight relative to your stated goals, I agree with the previous replies. Certainly, eat good food in whatever amounts you feel you need to, but intentionally over or under eating to manipulate your weight doesn't seem warranted. If you start feeling like you're eating well but not recovering well, eating more (especially more animal protein) might be warranted, but so would sleeping more and taking an honest look at your total volume.

 

[Sean M]

Thank you all. There are several levers to manipulate to get the desired adaptation (strength): the training stimulus itself (load, volume), but also other variables like food, sleep, other stress, etc.

If you start feeling like you're eating well but not recovering well, eating more (especially more animal protein) might be warranted, but so would sleeping more and taking an honest look at your total volume.

That's good stuff there. Let recover-ability inform the variables (training load, sleep, food) to tinker with.

 

[Bret S.]

Sean when I was 32 I trained barbells at a body weight of 215, 6' 2", fairly lean for my height, BF around 10%.
At that weight I squatted with 315 with a close stance for sets of 10 reps, bench press maxed out at 315 x 8 reps and Dl weight of again 315 for reps routinely. This was with no drugs, creatine or anything else.
The point I'm making is that even though I wasn't as thick as in the past it was no problem to hit these poundages. I didn't go for limit singles then as I didn't want to risk injury and screw up my MA training.

 

[IonRod]

I hate counting calories. I just eat a lot, lift a lot and check the scale and my waist regularly. If it is getting fishy, I adjust the food intake. So far I only needed to adjust up. I am 32 as well.

I don't know what is your fear here exactly. You won't baloon up overnight on the LP. Monitor your weight and waist, check the mirror. Eat a lot. You will need a lot if you do the LP by the book. However, if you see the numbers creep up into a territory you don't like, size down your portions. A couple sessions of heavy squats will quickly melt that away.

The LP does not last forever. The progress will most likely slow down or stall by Month 3. This is when you need to change the programming, and that's when you will get a chance to focus more on cardio and burning off excess fat. But nothing unrepairable will happen in those first 3 months with your fat percentage. On the other hand, if you restrict your calories, you will sabotage that rapid novice progress for no good reason.

 

[fractal]

I think Wendler advocates packing the food in purely for recovery and hypertrophy. He often quips ‘don’t be afraid to be big and strong’. He’s had a history of being a big, fat, one dimensional powerlifter who couldn’t tackle a flight of stairs - but still advocates eating lots, despite changing his tune and becoming more focused on athleticism. I’ll give a +1 to 5/3/1 as well. Lots of great templates to choose from - the ‘simplest strength template’ and ‘boring but big’ are very popular.

My understanding is that a big belly creates very useful leverage especially in the squat, but I don’t see why anyone would intentially want one of those unless they are very deep down the limit strength rabbithole.

 

[Steve Freides]

I'm referring to Starting Strength NLP specifically.

@Sean M, nothing personal, but I'd ask for advice about their program on their forum. We don't do things the way they do.

From your posts earlier in this thread, you sound like you've got bodyfat you could stand to get rid of. In your place, that's the first thing I'd do. Your choice, of course.

My leanest, after S&S and TSC training, was 197 and 36" waist (~18% body fat) a year ago.

That sounds like a good place to get to. From there, if you want to go on a mass-and-strength building program, that's certainly an option.

Becoming stronger happens, in simple terms, via improved skill or increased size. Get yourself to a good baseline - do S&S or another A+A approach, get back to your good, recent weight, then reassess. IMHO, lots of folks get too wrapped up in a list of things they eventually want to accomplish and often end up not reaching any of their goals as a result. If you've got body composition and strength goals, I'd tackle one and then the other. I don't mean to suggest you forsake any long-term goal, but just have a realistic plan. It's a whole lot easier to drop some weight while doing strength training but not being focused on maximum strength gains, and then to switch to a strength focus and put on some poundage if that way works for you.

‘don’t be afraid to be big and strong’.

I know that's not you speaking, but to each his own - I want my strength to help my life, not _be_ my life. I'll eat when I'm hungry, and if picking up heavy things makes me hungrier, I'm good with eating more. There isn't even a good comparison I could make to my life in music - when I want to play better, I practice. That's how strength training ought to be for most people, IMHO - it's a skill, and the idea that you have to eat a certain way to support it is an attempt to connect unrelated things for most people, most of the time. I realize I hold a minority opinion in this regard; I'm ok with that.

My point to you - you get to decide what's important to you, so think about what you want, and don't follow a program whose goals don't align with yours.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-

 

[Sean M]

Thanks all, great discussion.

I don't have body comp goals, just some guard rails (like: I don't want to get over 40" waist again). My hunger increased in my A+A snatch program recently, which makes sense because the tonnage I was moving was the most I've ever moved.

I guess I'm aiming for "big enough to suit the given level of strength (and progression)" - so not over-fat for mediocre amateur lifting numbers, not the refrigerator physiques you see lifting the most weight, and not so under-fat that I have to center my life around tracking macros and weighing food and doing cuts and bulks and all that junk, just for a visible 6-pack (and probably not as strong either). Just enough fuel to lift a decent amount of weight, and look a bit like I do so.

I assume just eating somewhat normally, maybe more if needed, and lifting heavy, will take care of itself. The internet wars over GOMAD vs. "cut/bulk" is just noise, and overrides common sense.

 

[Oscar]

I like monitoring my waist and having lower and upper limits. In my case, when I hit 81 cm, I allow myself to eat more. If I hit 84 cm, I reduce food. If I'm in between, I don't pay much attention to it a measure every 2 weeks to monitor.

If I went the NLP road I might allow to go a bit higher in both thresholds, maybe 83 to 86 cm, but not more than that. If I'm not mistaken , the spirit of the NLP is that both the skinny and the fat should meet at about 15-20% by the time they are strong. So no point in going even close to 25% IMO.

 

[Bret S.]

I'll eat when I'm hungry,

I remember an interview I saw or read about with a man who was healthy, vibrant and well over 100 years old. The interviewer asked him about diet, he said he ate when hungry and stopped when he wasn't hungry anymore.
The interviewer was excited and said he stopped eating when he was full too! Then the old guy said no, I didn't say full, I said I eat until I'm not hungry anymore.

 

[BrianCF]

@Sean M, nothing personal, but I'd ask for advice about their program on their forum. We don't do things the way they do.

From your posts earlier in this thread, you sound like you've got bodyfat you could stand to get rid of. In your place, that's the first thing I'd do. Your choice, of course.



That sounds like a good place to get to. From there, if you want to go on a mass-and-strength building program, that's certainly an option.

Becoming stronger happens, in simple terms, via improved skill or increased size. Get yourself to a good baseline - do S&S or another A+A approach, get back to your good, recent weight, then reassess. IMHO, lots of folks get too wrapped up in a list of things they eventually want to accomplish and often end up not reaching any of their goals as a result. If you've got body composition and strength goals, I'd tackle one and then the other. I don't mean to suggest you forsake any long-term goal, but just have a realistic plan. It's a whole lot easier to drop some weight while doing strength training but not being focused on maximum strength gains, and then to switch to a strength focus and put on some poundage if that way works for you.



I know that's not you speaking, but to each his own - I want my strength to help my life, not _be_ my life. I'll eat when I'm hungry, and if picking up heavy things makes me hungrier, I'm good with eating more. There isn't even a good comparison I could make to my life in music - when I want to play better, I practice. That's how strength training ought to be for most people, IMHO - it's a skill, and the idea that you have to eat a certain way to support it is an attempt to connect unrelated things for most people, most of the time. I realize I hold a minority opinion in this regard; I'm ok with that.

My point to you - you get to decide what's important to you, so think about what you want, and don't follow a program whose goals don't align with yours.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-

Steve, great input as always. However, what's great about this forum is the participants who have had different backgrounds and experiences in their lifting. If someone is familiar with Starting Strength or 5/3/1 with people with similar interests who's advice he trusts (as much as you can on an internet forum) so be it.

I LOVE kettlebells and it's my primary source of fitness, but it's not the only thing I've ever done.

If we were discussing juicing or a direct competitor, I'd understand. Maybe this thread should fall into Everything Else, but Sean wanted to know about nutrition.

With much respect.

 

[fractal]

I know that's not you speaking, but to each his own - I want my strength to help my life, not _be_ my life. I'll eat when I'm hungry, and if picking up heavy things makes me hungrier, I'm good with eating more. There isn't even a good comparison I could make to my life in music - when I want to play better, I practice. That's how strength training ought to be for most people, IMHO - it's a skill, and the idea that you have to eat a certain way to support it is an attempt to connect unrelated things for most people, most of the time. I realize I hold a minority opinion in this regard; I'm ok with that.

-S-

Long ago, I accepted that trying to build and maintain an unnatural amount of size for my frame was both unenjoyable and probably not ideal for health. Now I eat a bit beyond satisfied on high volume days, otherwise I have a tendency to under eat if I’m not paying attention.

 

[IonRod]

The internet wars over GOMAD vs. "cut/bulk" is just noise, and overrides common sense.

I don't think there are any wars over it. The book you are referencing and its authour is crystal clear - this diet is only recommended for a very skinny teenager or very young adult who can hardly gain any weight and it is only to be taken for a very short time during the NLP to assist with total calories in. After the mass gain has been kicked off, GOMAD should be dropped as it is no longer useful.

 

[IonRod]

I remember an interview I saw or read about with a man who was healthy, vibrant and well over 100 years old. The interviewer asked him about diet, he said he ate when hungry and stopped when he wasn't hungry anymore.
The interviewer was excited and said he stopped eating when he was full too! Then the old guy said no, I didn't say full, I said I eat until I'm not hungry anymore.

So true. I am a fast eater and so often I don't realize I should have stopped eating several forks ago. Then it's already too late and I am full.

 

[fractal]

So true. I am a fast eater and so often I don't realize I should have stopped eating several forks ago. Then it's already too late and I am full.

I’m a fast eater by nature but I’ve recently learned a lot about the value of properly chewing your food. 20 chews per mouthful they say. Dinner takes forever now