User 4484
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Al is such a likeable guy! No macho bullshit.
Bodyweight Gama the Wrestler Training?
- Thread starter movestrength
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pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,
I guess this is also a matter of culture, training age and goals.
Below is an interesting interview of Frank Shamrock regarding his routine, among other things:
www.bodybuilding.com
Kind regards,
Pet'
I guess this is also a matter of culture, training age and goals.
Below is an interesting interview of Frank Shamrock regarding his routine, among other things:
An Interview With Frank Shamrock!
In case you don't know, Frank is a professional fighter, and we aren't talking about that sissy boxing stuff either. Ultimate Fighting, no-holds barred, mixed martial arts, whatever you choose to call it, Shamrock excels at it.
www.bodybuilding.com
Kind regards,
Pet'
Deleted member 316
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Frank was the man. I enjoyed watching him compete
User 4484
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To bad Dana W doens´t acknowledge him enough as a true pioneer of the sport. Great athlete!
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I'm ignorant of body science, but as for training, there are: 1. endurance and 2. strength (maximum strength if you like).
These are not the same but they're related. High reps at a lighter weight make you able to handle less reps at a higher weight, and less reps at a higher weight make you able to handle more reps at the lower weight.
There is obviously going to be some kind of range that this conundrum is going to be effective within, outside of which it just won't work any longer. For example, doing 300 presses with 5lbs isn't going to translate into doing 3 presses with 80lbs, but it's going to make you able to press a higher maximum weight than if you didn't train like this.
It's nice to know we can still get stronger lifting lighter weights but at more reps. The key I guess is to go lighter but not too light. This is what the Cycling protocol seems to be all about - you hit your maximum, then go back relatively (but not extremely!) light and build up again.
Currently, I'm caught between doing S&S (and parts of S&S) daily with both the 32kg and the 24kg bells. 32 if I can, 24 if I must. Just sticking with the 24 all the time though would be a waste of potential.
These are not the same but they're related. High reps at a lighter weight make you able to handle less reps at a higher weight, and less reps at a higher weight make you able to handle more reps at the lower weight.
There is obviously going to be some kind of range that this conundrum is going to be effective within, outside of which it just won't work any longer. For example, doing 300 presses with 5lbs isn't going to translate into doing 3 presses with 80lbs, but it's going to make you able to press a higher maximum weight than if you didn't train like this.
It's nice to know we can still get stronger lifting lighter weights but at more reps. The key I guess is to go lighter but not too light. This is what the Cycling protocol seems to be all about - you hit your maximum, then go back relatively (but not extremely!) light and build up again.
Currently, I'm caught between doing S&S (and parts of S&S) daily with both the 32kg and the 24kg bells. 32 if I can, 24 if I must. Just sticking with the 24 all the time though would be a waste of potential.
Period
Level 6 Valued Member
As far as I know, the general opinion in Sports science seems to be that if you lift more than 40% of 1RM, you can achieve a carry-over to maximal strength. Nathanael Morrision had some interesting tables in his book Combat Conditioning (not to be confused with the book from Matt Furey) where he tried to convert 1RM on the barbell to high reps with kettlebells etc. According to him, 40% of 1RM should allow you to do 50 reps unbroken, 50% 38 reps and 60% 25 reps. Now, the conversion is certainly more tricky than that, since we all have different proportions of slow-twitch and fast-twitch muscle fibers (and I know for a fact that the maximum number of reps people can do with 80% of their max varies wildly - the lower the percentage gets, the more differences you will see), but I found it an interesting approach. First, the program actually allows you to substitute reps for 1RM tests, which is rare (and of course open to debate). Second, my first thought when seeing it was to write a periodization with phases at various percentages, but instead of starting at a classic 2x20 or something really go up in reps and use those reps to build my max. Now, I know using "grinds" for higher reps isn't popular here, but first of all, I don't think "grinds" are all that clearly defined, as you won't be "grinding" when doing 50 reps straight. I have found this and similar approaches to work well for me, though, since my body seems to thrive on lactic acid (I had a knack for both wrestling and middle-distance running, but never was a great sprinter) and I actually seem to make longer-lasting strength gains with higher reps.
Cheers
Period.
Cheers
Period.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Maximum Strength
Resistance Training increases strength.
However, for Maximum Strength development occurs with loads of approximately 85% of 1 Repetition Max with 1 - 5 Repetition per set.
Grinding Is Precisely What You Will Do
Higher repetition with a loads becomes ever harder, as muscle fatigue sets in and you near failure in an exercise. You have to dig each repetition out, grind it out.
Strength Limiting Effect of Lactate
Lactate build up decreases Maximum Strength, Power and Speed when performing higher repetitions.
With that said, here is the...
Benefit of Lactate for Hypertrophy
Lactate produced with moderate to high repetitions in resistance sets produces a downstream anabolic, muscle building effect.
Practical Occlusion Training
Dr Jeremy P Loenneke
Accumulation of Metabolites (lactic acid > acidic environment > GH secretion)"
Metabolic Accumulation Occlusion training with low intensities has shown increases in lactate and growth hormone (GH). The increase in GH has actually been shown to be even higher than that seen with heavy resistance training. One study in athletes showed a 290x increase in GH over baseline (Takarada, Nakamura, Aruga, Onda, Miyazaki, & Ishii, 2000). Lactate increasing is linked to GH, in that an increase in lactate makes the environment within the muscle more acidic. Remember, there is an inverse relationship between lactate and pH, so as lactate increases, pH decreases. There is evidence to indicate that a low pH stimulates the pathway that plays an important role in the secretion of GH (Gosselink, et al., 1998).
Lactate Threshold
One of the reason, some individuals are better with endurance events of their greater Lactate Threshold level.
The more efficient you are a processing lactate, rather than letting it accumulate/build up, the better you are with endurance events.
Strength Endurance
Some individual do better with higher repetition training.
Strength to some degree can be increased with this type of training.
However, Strength Endurance Training dramatically limits the amount of Maximum Strength that can be developed.
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Period
Level 6 Valued Member
That is a very rough guideline and hardly more accurate than Morrison's rep calculation. You will find people who can do 10 reps @ 85%, there is no reason they should do 1-5 instead. And please note that I said "carry-over", meaning there can be a positive effect on 1RM. I didn't say "optimal approach".
Period
Level 6 Valued Member
I have to disagree here. In fact, feel free to watch any footage of Indian wrestlers doing their calisthenics for hundreds of reps, you'll be hard pressed to find a single "grind" there. The same holds true in my experience for wrestlers doing reps with weights. I have quoted the East German handbook "Ringen" (by Gain/Hartmann/Tünnemann, East Berlin 1980) before, who included a test for reps in their program. The test is maximum reps with a given weight (75% of the weight class limit) in 45 seconds; the target reps range from 30-45 depending on weight class and exercise. Sorry, that is not my definition of a "grind", and if anything, you'll have the time to grind the last 3 reps or so.
Period
Level 6 Valued Member
Please note again that I wasn't arguing for strength endurance training as the ideal form to increase maximum strength. I can tell you my strength numbers got pretty decent by doing so, in fact I only did 1-2 months of max strength per year, if that. However, this discussion started off with S&C for wrestling, and I happen to have quite a bit of practical experience with that. As it happens, wrestling is predominantly a strength-endurance event when it comes to S&C for competition, as we can see from the duration (6 minutes), and it would be pretty easy to back it up by lactate analysis. Therefore, I have argued in post #56 that the differences in relative strength between heavyweights and lightweights may explain why basic BWEs seem to be favored by many famous heavyweights, but rarely by lightweights. In all cases, however, one form or another of strength endurance training is an absolute MUST for wrestling. Whether or not that limits your theoretical powerlifting performance is pretty much irrelevant, as long as you are strong enough for wrestling. What I can say, though, is that in my case it was enough to get me noticed by the local powerlifters, in fact they tried to recruit me for their team.
Cheers
Period.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Research and Anecdotal Data
Research and anecdotal data have demonstrated that Maximum Strength is built with higher loads and lower repetitions.
Very Little Carryover
Each type of strength training provide some carryover to another type of strength.
This is a test of Strength Endurance.
To increase Maximum Strength the parameters need to be adhered to; low repetition and heavy load.
Your right, if you make something light enough, it's not going to be a grind nor will it do much to increase Maximum Strength.
To reiterate, if you make something light enough, it's not going to be a grind nor will it increase Maximum Strength.
This type of training is Strength Endurance.
This is a test of Strength Endurance not Maximum Strength.
0-100: Know Your Training Percentages
From 0 – 100: Know Your Percentages - Thibarmy
While training percentages can vary depending on how you're feeling on a given day, they can still be extremely useful.
thibarmy.com
This an excellent article that provide a better perspective of the Training Percentages that are most effective at developing the different Types of Strength: Maximum Strength, Power, Speed, Hypertrophy, and Strength Endurance.
There is a multitude of reputable research on this and good anecdotal data from decades that support this, as well.
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Period
Level 6 Valued Member
I am very well aware of the defitions of strength endurance, maximal stregnth etc. and how they are commonly trained. Neither have I argued that doing reps for 45 seconds was maximal strength (there are separate tests for that in the book I quoted, feel free to look them up). I have merely argued that the sheer number of reps doesn't turn a certain exercise into a "grind", in fact, "grinding" is a lot more common for maximal efforts in these exercises. However, the picture is more complex than the article of Mr. Thibadeu suggests. I would refer to Charles Poliquin here, who once suggested training according to fiber distribution, and implied it would be more productive for individuals with certain fiber distribution to train predominantly in certain rep ranges. In fact, he said that a lot of good wrestlers were "earth types" and as such usually better off with higher reps (The Five Elements | T Nation).Research and Anecdotal Data
Research and anecdotal data have demonstrated that Maximum Strength is built with higher loads and lower repetitions.
Very Little Carryover
Each type of strength training provide some carryover to another type of strength.
This is a test of Strength Endurance.
To increase Maximum Strength the parameters need to be adhered to; low repetition and heavy load.
Your right, if you make something light enough, it's not going to be a grind nor will it do much to increase Maximum Strength.
To reiterate, if you make something light enough, it's not going to be a grind nor will it increase Maximum Strength.
This type of training is Strength Endurance.
This is a test of Strength Endurance not Maximum Strength.
0-100: Know Your Training Percentages
From 0 – 100: Know Your Percentages - Thibarmy
While training percentages can vary depending on how you're feeling on a given day, they can still be extremely useful.
This an excellent article that provide a better perspective of the Training Percentages that are most effective at developing the different Types of Strength: Maximum Strength, Power, Speed, Hypertrophy, and Strength Endurance.
There is a multitude of reputable research on this and good anecdotal data from decades on that support this, as well.
Once again, please note that I am talking about S&C for wrestling first and foremost. In wrestling, the emphasis is usually not on "getting as strong as possible" but on "being strong enough" as well as having "enough" strength-endurance, explosive strength etc. All of these are necessarily measured against the competition one is likely to face. There are various definitions and standards for what that means (I also have the standards of the Canadian and the Russian teams somewhere, though they are not as detailed as the East German ones I have referred to above), but it is kind of hard to argue that someone who has a dominant winning record - such as Gama in our example here - wasn't "strong enough" compared to his competition.
Cheers
Period.
NormanOsborn
Level 5 Valued Member
When Lockdown started back in March, the reason I bought myself some Kettlebells is the only other option I had for training with the gyms closed was calisthenics. At my age(53)a lot of high rep training inevitably leads to shoulder and elbow problems. That's one reason I like Simple and Sinister: 10 x 10 on the Swings, 2 x 5 on the TGU's and you're work sets are done.
pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,
Some people will respond better to high repetition training than other, regardless the goal.
In general, for most people, the best option is to train while using a wide variety of rep range, but also a wide variety of moves. This is claimed by Steve Maxwell or Ido Portal for instance. Using this variety prevents from overuse injury and builds durability.
What @NormanOsborn underlines is interesting because it means that we have to find what works for us, at a moment in time, for our goal, and considering our training and injury history or constraints (dedicated time to train, etc...).
For myself, after years of training and trials, I noticed that:
- I progress well using "daily dose" as soon as I have to train fairly heavy.
- I progress well using high volume of light to moderate weight (which includes RoP and Red Zone for kb training).
- Regular 5x5 for example (or heavy weightlifting 3x a week) is more taxing to me and I progress less.
Context is important as well. An Oly lifter or weightlifter will not necessarily use the same loads and programming than a wrestler. Wrestling by itself is a complicated sport as it requires a nice blend of strength, endurance (both muscular and cardio vascular) and power.
Kind regards,
Pet'
Some people will respond better to high repetition training than other, regardless the goal.
In general, for most people, the best option is to train while using a wide variety of rep range, but also a wide variety of moves. This is claimed by Steve Maxwell or Ido Portal for instance. Using this variety prevents from overuse injury and builds durability.
What @NormanOsborn underlines is interesting because it means that we have to find what works for us, at a moment in time, for our goal, and considering our training and injury history or constraints (dedicated time to train, etc...).
For myself, after years of training and trials, I noticed that:
- I progress well using "daily dose" as soon as I have to train fairly heavy.
- I progress well using high volume of light to moderate weight (which includes RoP and Red Zone for kb training).
- Regular 5x5 for example (or heavy weightlifting 3x a week) is more taxing to me and I progress less.
Context is important as well. An Oly lifter or weightlifter will not necessarily use the same loads and programming than a wrestler. Wrestling by itself is a complicated sport as it requires a nice blend of strength, endurance (both muscular and cardio vascular) and power.
Kind regards,
Pet'
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
This.
Reliance on any one strategy is going to leave holes. It doesn't take a lot of pondering to apply SAID to any approach and you'll get the answer to what the primary adaptive response will be, and what the carryover is liable to be. Primarily a mix of metabolic stress and tension when it comes to generating strength and size. Leaving out higher tension work is going to leave holes in development of max effort and beneficial tendon remodeling that needs minimum 70% MVC to obtain (this does not appear to be negotiable). A high volume/low load approach can cover a lot of ground but some form of higher tension work should be incorporated.
High volume movements that have other purposes such as mobility or to mimic a sport specific pattern, need to be looked at a little differently as well.
movestrength
Level 4 Valued Member
Thank you for your responses, I have started to do slow repetitions with peak contractions and isometrics.
With the pull ups, I am also doing slow sets of weighted vest pull ups.
I’ve been starting with the power movements first and moving on to strength and isometrics.
I have also been experimenting with various types of push ups.
Forward and lateral plyo push ups, clap push ups, stagger plyo, etc.
I started doing the knee tap push ups as well.
I have been going for peak contraction and TUT as well and I have started to develop more strength which carries over to the power element as well.
bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
Nice power @LvlUpStr !
If i may note something: maybe it's the camera angle but it looks like your right elbow flares significantly wider than your left. Your torso twists as well. I'm not pointing this out for aesthetic reasons, but I have had a simlar issue and it was tied to/led to shoulder problems.
If i may note something: maybe it's the camera angle but it looks like your right elbow flares significantly wider than your left. Your torso twists as well. I'm not pointing this out for aesthetic reasons, but I have had a simlar issue and it was tied to/led to shoulder problems.
movestrength
Level 4 Valued Member
Thank you, Jeff! What did you do to work on it? I’m going to work on this! I think I have an imbalance as my left arm is stronger as I had golfer’s elbow in my right for a time and developed to the left side by continuing to workout.
bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
Similar issue here, golfers's elbow in both arms at one point.
Short answer : keep your elbows in closer to your body, keep your shoulders depressed (i.e. don't let your traps shrug towards your ears when pushing), and try to keep your forearms vertical throughout the motion. Also make sure you feel the weight in your palms, not your fingers.
Long answer: you need more external rotation in the weak shoulder to get it into the correct position. The serratus and lower traps should be moving the scapula into a more "flush" position to your ribcage. This will create a stable base from which the rest of your arm will transfer force appropriately (hopefully alleviating the medial elbow pain). If you watch your video closely you can see how your left shoulder blade stays down on the ribs, while the right one doesn't.
You can do scapular pushups or serratus slides, or if you have a barbell do landmine presses as a warmup or auxilliary exercise (keep the elbow in line with your shoulder as you press, no flaring it out!). Light one-arm pushups done at elevation, with very strict form (shoulder depressed, elbow in close to the body) may help you to feel the correct position.
pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
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