PaulAllen
Level 6 Valued Member
I can tell you the 3.0 works if you work it!
Kettlebell "Giant 1.0"
- Thread starter John Grahill
- Start date
Scrumdog
Level 4 Valued Member
Thanks all for the advice.
Giant 3.0 sounds like a good plan! I'm looking forward to really dialling into the clean and press. The double front squats in DFW are brutal hence wondering if my legs would miss them but I'm sure my C+P will benefit. I used to press significantly heavier barbells and have 2x24kg bells that I can't wait to be able to press for reps so the suggestion sounds spot on.
Giant 3.0 sounds like a good plan! I'm looking forward to really dialling into the clean and press. The double front squats in DFW are brutal hence wondering if my legs would miss them but I'm sure my C+P will benefit. I used to press significantly heavier barbells and have 2x24kg bells that I can't wait to be able to press for reps so the suggestion sounds spot on.
And you'll still be sweating AFTER your shower!
I don't agree either.
There are MANY variables.
For example:
1) Have a tough time pressurizing your midsection to press heavy bells overhead? DFSQ will fix that.
2) Have "good knees?" (Many guys over 40 don't.) DFSQ is great.
3) Hate squats? DFW is not for you.
4) Have good recovery? Lots of sleep? Lots of food? Low stress levels? You should be able to manage DFSQ which are hard (like all squats) on the CNS.
5) Poor recovery? No DFSQ and DFW for you.
6) The thought of a lot of exercises to "get through" in a workout stress you out? DFW not for you.
7) Crave sheer simplicity. GIANT > DFW.
You are 100% correct.
The problem with many of these programs is that people read into them what they want to read.
guardian7
Level 6 Valued Member
It is mostly to train max deadlift. The doubleKB front squat is more than enough for the squat for those with general health goals.
guardian7
Level 6 Valued Member
I would also like to thank John Grahill for starting this thread. I am "Looking Forward" to 1.2 as well. I have more confidence now for the 9 reps because of reading here and I have seen the process happen with the 6 and 8 rep days. Initial drop in volume but quick adaptation. My 8 rep day volume surpassed my 6 rep day 1.0 volume yesterday.
John Grahill
Level 8 Valued Member
The 1.1 and 1.2 is also where I noticed my traps made my suit blazers bunch up in the rear!
Tirofijo
Level 6 Valued Member
Most here seem to be doing the 30 min version.
Who has used and had success doing the 20 min version?
I've done EDT workouts, some of which left me in a pile of sweat on the floor, completely spent after 30 minutes (I'm looking at you DFW - twice.) Four weeks was more than enough. Hopefully, I've learned some lessons about autoregulation and this time I don't plan to turn Giant into an epic smoke session.
30 minutes might be too long for me (or maybe not.) 50/20 Bryce Lane was much more doable with it's 20 minute limits. I recognize that's my ego as much as program design.
Also, I do love the fire and forget nature of a minimalist c&p program, but only so much. I took a recent break from KB Strong and did some random things and enjoyed the spice of other movements.
(*This may be the wrong thread to write this but hear me out.)
I figure if I'm intelligent and stay within my limits, I can do the 20 min version and still have enough energy and recover to do some dips, pullups, carries, whatever. Nothing crazy. Just getting some variety in.
However, if I do other things, I fully understand I will reverse any gains, my legs may fall off, my wife will likely leave me, and most importantly, I won't be doing the Giant (my apologies to Geoff.)
Feel free to tell me this is a terrible idea, but I'd also like to hear from folks that did the 20 min version.
Who has used and had success doing the 20 min version?
I've done EDT workouts, some of which left me in a pile of sweat on the floor, completely spent after 30 minutes (I'm looking at you DFW - twice.) Four weeks was more than enough. Hopefully, I've learned some lessons about autoregulation and this time I don't plan to turn Giant into an epic smoke session.
30 minutes might be too long for me (or maybe not.) 50/20 Bryce Lane was much more doable with it's 20 minute limits. I recognize that's my ego as much as program design.
Also, I do love the fire and forget nature of a minimalist c&p program, but only so much. I took a recent break from KB Strong and did some random things and enjoyed the spice of other movements.
(*This may be the wrong thread to write this but hear me out.)
I figure if I'm intelligent and stay within my limits, I can do the 20 min version and still have enough energy and recover to do some dips, pullups, carries, whatever. Nothing crazy. Just getting some variety in.
However, if I do other things, I fully understand I will reverse any gains, my legs may fall off, my wife will likely leave me, and most importantly, I won't be doing the Giant (my apologies to Geoff.)
Feel free to tell me this is a terrible idea, but I'd also like to hear from folks that did the 20 min version.
John Grahill
Level 8 Valued Member
Well, I did the 30 minute version but used 20 minutes during the 4th week of each segment as a deload. I did that because I know that if I stuck with 20 minute sessions steadily I'd try to cram too much into each session. This would lead me to poor form and potential injury. This is just my take but I ran into this using the 50/20 protocol in the past. Using the 30 minute sessions I can get a little more volume at a safer pace. I hope I explained that correctly.
Just my 2 cents.
guardian7
Level 6 Valued Member
Remember that you have off days for light bodyweight variety. I walk and do mobility work. Rest days doesn't mean do nothing. Aleks Salkin and probably others say there are no rest days only recovery days.
I think this type of question that is seen frequently in the forum can be answered simply by the data.
If you keep adding a set or reducing the time to do the same work each week in the Giant, then it is working. If you are not progressing then you are adding too much of something else and/or not recovering enough either due to adding exercise or lifestyle stress issues and must therefore adjust.
Not recommending you add anything. I just see a lot of questions like this on the forum and the answer is always the same. Track your results and only you can answer it. Can you add X? Yes, you can if you can still keep progressing Y; otherwise, you are interfering with it. The data will tell you. To be even more sure do a controlled experiment. do one week with additional work and one without and see if your results are still optimal with the additional work. Eventually, you will find the sweet spot of work and recovery. I think some here could do S&S with the giant on off days for example. You could also wave it with the program so you rest fully before or after a high rep day on the Giant but add light work near the light and medium Giant days.
You can do what you want if you can recover from it and keep progressing. Geoff wrote the Giant, so that most people like myself can do it but can't add more than light active recovery days. If I added another demanding or probably even moderate program, I would compromise my results. There is also a mental factor. Giant 1.1 high rep days are demanding, so going into the high rep days well rested is motivating.
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Eric Wilson
Level 6 Valued Member
What is meant by "good recovery"? Does that refer to how quickly you are prepared for the next set? Or how ready you are for the next training session?
Also, how do you know whether your recovery is good, mediocre, or poor?
Also, how do you know whether your recovery is good, mediocre, or poor?
barrak
Level 6 Valued Member
So Week 1 of Giant 3.0 increased my 2x16K C+P from 5RM to 7RM. Quicker than expected, so maybe I should pick up the pace and challenge myself for the next three weeks.
I'm wondering if doing one of the following is a good idea:
1. Sprinkle 2x20 singles on Day 3 for the next three weeks.
2. Do a 4th day each week with 2x20K singles, GTG style.
3. Shorten the 3.0 week, with 2x16K exclusively. For example, this coming week: Days 1, 2, 3, 1
I'm wondering if doing one of the following is a good idea:
1. Sprinkle 2x20 singles on Day 3 for the next three weeks.
2. Do a 4th day each week with 2x20K singles, GTG style.
3. Shorten the 3.0 week, with 2x16K exclusively. For example, this coming week: Days 1, 2, 3, 1
Ben H
Level 6 Valued Member
I've just finished 1.3 so I thought I'd share my results from 12 weeks on the Giant
I did the whole thing with 2x16kg which was an honest 10TRM for the double C&P in the sense that I could probably force out a dodgy 11th rep before my left side would give up on me. On the right I could have done a couple more but decided this would be a good conservative weighting. My left shoulder has always been a bit dodgy and pressing in general has never really been very successful for me - my endurance is good (I achieved timed Solid (S&S w/ 40kg) last year) but my max strength press not good for my weight - my strict form MP 1RM was 26.5kg after several cycles of Soju & Tuba and Ladders Reloaded, and I was never able to progress far with ROP ladders without plateauing and losing strength.
My low starting point and lack of experience with high-volume pressing programmes probably explains some of the rapid success I've had, but it has been better than I could have hoped for. After a few weeks of discomfort my left shoulder basically cleared up, and my technique continued to develop throughout the programme as I discovered new subtleties of form. I was able to add a set every session (vs. the previous week), usually two, and went the whole stretch without a single missed rep. Psychologically I found the escalating density very intrinsically motivating but with none of the extrinsic pressure of a preordained rate of progress that has caused me to overreach on other programs. Sometimes it was difficult to get three sessions into a week due to other commitments but I just about managed it, and found each session enjoyable.
Working with only about 40% of my bodyweight there were a lot of sets to get through but my recovery time within sessions kept improving and it has done wonders for my strength endurance. I did 1.1 with 20 minute sessions to see if the volume would cause problems with recovery between sessions but when it didn't I went up to 30 minutes for the next two blocks.
As for results, volume per minute in the last session was double what it was in the first session, even despite the longer session. In total volume lifted in the 30 mins sessions, there was also a dramatic increase. In my first session of 1.2 I moved 2816kg; in my last work session of 1.3 I moved 5120kg (this was a slightly reckless overreach, but I had hit nearly 4900kg in the previous session and wanted to see if I could break 5 tons).
Not that anyone asked but here is a chart!!
As you can see I took a deload in every 4th week. I was always happy to make the most of the time and leave a few reps in the tank, apart from in the third week of each block when it really was a max effort. Once I got over my initial shoulder and technique problems I could perhaps have restarted 1.1 with to 2x20kg quite happily but in the long run I have never regretted taking the time to lay a strong foundation for future gains.
A couple of days after finishing I tested my rep max with 2 x 16kg and got 30 reps (!). Beforehand I had just about been able to military press the 24kg once on my left, but I was now able to press it 5 times consecutively (I lent my 24kg to a friend so it was actually a 16kg and an 8kg held together - a bit awkward to clean so I didn't re-clean before each press). On the right I could do 8 with strict form.
A strict 32kg press still eludes me, which is perhaps no surprise considering I was only working with half that on each side. I think a concerted effort would get me there quite quickly. I don't have any inbetween sizes and my hands aren't big enough to hold a 16, an 8 and a 2.5 plate in one hand but I reckon I would have gotten that up a few times.
I had been eating for growth so I actually took before and after measurements for the first time in my life. My relaxed bicep measurement went up 5.5%, and both calf and thigh by about 4.5% which was a surprise because the cleans seemed almost too easy the whole time. My chest grew slightly, but I have also noticed the commonly reported shoulder effects viz a viz shirts and jackets no longer fitting!
I had been planning to run 2.0 next but the volume was already very high so I decided to leave it for another time. I plan to do 3.0 with 24s when I'm able to get some hands on a pair later in the year, then start again at 1.1. After a few false starts with other press programmes, I think this is the programme which will get me to a 1/2BW press (in about five years, probably).
As for what's next, I have about 5 months until my 30th birthday so it's off the tomahawk steak diet and back to hamburger to see if I can get to at least untimed Sinister by then.
I did the whole thing with 2x16kg which was an honest 10TRM for the double C&P in the sense that I could probably force out a dodgy 11th rep before my left side would give up on me. On the right I could have done a couple more but decided this would be a good conservative weighting. My left shoulder has always been a bit dodgy and pressing in general has never really been very successful for me - my endurance is good (I achieved timed Solid (S&S w/ 40kg) last year) but my max strength press not good for my weight - my strict form MP 1RM was 26.5kg after several cycles of Soju & Tuba and Ladders Reloaded, and I was never able to progress far with ROP ladders without plateauing and losing strength.
My low starting point and lack of experience with high-volume pressing programmes probably explains some of the rapid success I've had, but it has been better than I could have hoped for. After a few weeks of discomfort my left shoulder basically cleared up, and my technique continued to develop throughout the programme as I discovered new subtleties of form. I was able to add a set every session (vs. the previous week), usually two, and went the whole stretch without a single missed rep. Psychologically I found the escalating density very intrinsically motivating but with none of the extrinsic pressure of a preordained rate of progress that has caused me to overreach on other programs. Sometimes it was difficult to get three sessions into a week due to other commitments but I just about managed it, and found each session enjoyable.
Working with only about 40% of my bodyweight there were a lot of sets to get through but my recovery time within sessions kept improving and it has done wonders for my strength endurance. I did 1.1 with 20 minute sessions to see if the volume would cause problems with recovery between sessions but when it didn't I went up to 30 minutes for the next two blocks.
As for results, volume per minute in the last session was double what it was in the first session, even despite the longer session. In total volume lifted in the 30 mins sessions, there was also a dramatic increase. In my first session of 1.2 I moved 2816kg; in my last work session of 1.3 I moved 5120kg (this was a slightly reckless overreach, but I had hit nearly 4900kg in the previous session and wanted to see if I could break 5 tons).
Not that anyone asked but here is a chart!!
As you can see I took a deload in every 4th week. I was always happy to make the most of the time and leave a few reps in the tank, apart from in the third week of each block when it really was a max effort. Once I got over my initial shoulder and technique problems I could perhaps have restarted 1.1 with to 2x20kg quite happily but in the long run I have never regretted taking the time to lay a strong foundation for future gains.
A couple of days after finishing I tested my rep max with 2 x 16kg and got 30 reps (!). Beforehand I had just about been able to military press the 24kg once on my left, but I was now able to press it 5 times consecutively (I lent my 24kg to a friend so it was actually a 16kg and an 8kg held together - a bit awkward to clean so I didn't re-clean before each press). On the right I could do 8 with strict form.
A strict 32kg press still eludes me, which is perhaps no surprise considering I was only working with half that on each side. I think a concerted effort would get me there quite quickly. I don't have any inbetween sizes and my hands aren't big enough to hold a 16, an 8 and a 2.5 plate in one hand but I reckon I would have gotten that up a few times.
I had been eating for growth so I actually took before and after measurements for the first time in my life. My relaxed bicep measurement went up 5.5%, and both calf and thigh by about 4.5% which was a surprise because the cleans seemed almost too easy the whole time. My chest grew slightly, but I have also noticed the commonly reported shoulder effects viz a viz shirts and jackets no longer fitting!
I had been planning to run 2.0 next but the volume was already very high so I decided to leave it for another time. I plan to do 3.0 with 24s when I'm able to get some hands on a pair later in the year, then start again at 1.1. After a few false starts with other press programmes, I think this is the programme which will get me to a 1/2BW press (in about five years, probably).
As for what's next, I have about 5 months until my 30th birthday so it's off the tomahawk steak diet and back to hamburger to see if I can get to at least untimed Sinister by then.
barrak
Level 6 Valued Member
All of this from a pair of 16s...
Impressed and encouraged.
John Grahill
Level 8 Valued Member
Ben, that is awesome!
guardian7
Level 6 Valued Member
Yeah, I am getting my results with a mismatched chipped second hand KB someone gave away and an almost never used one a colleague gave me. Amazing to get such results with minimal equipment isn't it? My good bells are too heavy.
John Grahill
Level 8 Valued Member
I think it means next training session.
If you are comfortably advancing in your workout schedule without feeling completely smashed on non workout days, you can be pretty sure you're recovering.
patterner
Level 5 Valued Member
I do the 20 minute version for this exact reason.
When I had a platform, I was doing DDD as my warmup to the giant. Now I use loaded carries as a finisher. Still keeps my sessions right around 35 minutes, which is great for me right now. If I build t a platform again, I'll probably switch back to DDD, cause I love the deadlift movement pattern (as well as moving big (for me) weights.
guardian7
Level 6 Valued Member
Recovery is generally used for the next workout but your are right the term is not strict. I use the term rest periods for between sets. Some in this forum track their resting heart rate which is a good indicator. There are a number of discussions on the forum Resting heart rate My working definition is quite simple. Have I at least maintained my performance from the last workout and do I feel like I COULD work out. Others will have more scientific definitions but this works for me. How much you can train is less relevant than how well you can recover. Most people have it backwards until life teaches them the lesson!
I find waving the program, a core StrongFirst principle I don't see stressed in many other organizations, to be absolutely critical. After an 8 rep Giant 1.1 day, "looking forward" to a lower rep day is physically and psychologically encouraging without any guilt like taking an easy workout in other programs because you are tired.