Off-Topic GOALS....your opinions welcome!

[Carl in Dover]

@Steve W. and I were just beginning to have a great discussion regarding whether to set goals or master the process of training. I didn't want to derail @Jak Nieuwenhuis thread regarding posture, but I do think it is an excellent subject for discussion.

So, what's your thoughts?

Right now I'm going with the idea of having a goal or destination with my training. But I do think I'll check out that book on mastery that @Steve W. mentioned.

 

[Antti]

I don't really see why goals and the training process would be at odds.

To me the goal makes the training process. The goal tells me what and how I should train.

I can understand that some people take a certain goal too seriously, which can discompromise their training and maybe life in general. But that's another issue altogether.

 

[offwidth]

All goal oriented enterprises have failure as their anthesis.
- Mark Twight

That said... I have goals, but I prefer to think of myself as process oriented.

 

[Steve W.]

@Carl in Dover

I do think that goals and process are more complementary than oppositional. But I also think the idea of "SMART" goals is overrated and often counterproductive.

One of the principles of the Mastery book is that progress is not linear. This means that plateaus are a normal part of progress and that even when it appears you are just spinning your wheels you are often laying the foundation for a leap forward, and that a new peak is often followed by a regression and then stabilization at a new plateau that is higher than your previous plateau.

So having specific short term goals with a definite time frame is often unrealistic and counter to the overall process of achieving mastery.

On the other hand, your process/practice should be aligned with and informed by your overall long term goals. And even if you detach from the goal in your day to day practice, you can still have periodic check points and benchmarks to assess progress.

There are also specific objectives that do lend themselves to a definite time frame, such as preparing for a specific competition. However, Dan John has often pointed out how difficult peaking for a competition can be, and how a lot of olympic athletes, for example, fail to perform their best at the actual olympic games.

The Mastery philosophy is very much in keeping with Dan John's "park bench" approach to training. Let your goals inform your practice but then forget them. Show up, do the work, punch the clock, and cash the checks.

 

[LoriLifts]

For some reason, my brain seems to freak out with goals.
This year I'm re-naming them "Feats of Strength".
Here's what I got..
February...break my National DL record.
July..Compete in the National open and lift 2X my BW.

I'm purposely not putting down numbers. Because numbers feel like goals. And goals freak out my brain.

 

[Carl in Dover]

Great points above! Certainly food for thought.

I realize that ther are "different strikes for different folks" and a time and season for everything.

I suppose I like to have an objective to obtain in certain things, training being one of them. Short, mid and long term goals help me keep on track.
My wife on the other hand likes to "punch the clock" like Steve W mentioned above. She faithfully goes to the gym for her workout with no goal in mind. Just go and do the work, and that works for her!
I shall have to re-read Dan John's "park bench" training as I got a different meaning. I thought that he was talking about a more laid back approach to training when you didn't feel like working hard.

Carl in Dover

 

[Steve W.]

I shall have to re-read Dan John's "park bench" training as I got a different meaning. I thought that he was talking about a more laid back approach to training when you didn't feel like working hard.

Park bench is in contrast to "bus bench."

A bus bench is when you are sitting at a bench at a bus stop waiting for a bus to come. This is analogous to following a rigidly scheduled, goal-oriented training program. You are expecting something specific to happen by a specific time. A training example would be an 8 week program to hit a new PR in a given lift.

A park bench is where you're just enjoying the scenery and don't have to be anywhere specific at a specific time. Another Dan John phrase I like is, "Train today like you are planning to go for a PR tomorrow. Then train the same way tomorrow." It's not about working more or less hard, just about working in a consistent and sustainable way. S&S is basically park bench training. There are goals and progression, but not on any kind of a schedule. And for the most part, there are no particularly hard or easy days. Just a consistent, sustainable effort over time.

 

[Steve Freides]

I have specific goals - break the USAPL record in the raw deadlift for my age and weight - but I won’t let the goal take precedence over the process. So, e.g., I’ll miss a training session when I don’t feel good rather than tough it out and do what i’d originally planned.

-S-

 

[Deleted member 5559]

There are things we can do now and things we believe we need to be able to do in the future. All training is the attempt to bridge that divide. More importantly than goals, define the required physical performance needs of the future version of you.

I think Mark Twight has a bunch of motivational writings on this subject and why, when he ran his gym, he required athletes to compete in something. The first goal is to simply find and pursue something that requires physical performance and the rest will fall into place.

I think the growth in the idea of GPP is actually hurting the goal setting process. GPP is another way of saying, "I have no defined need for physical performance." Being prepared for anything is the same as being prepared for nothing.

 

[Steve W.]

GPP is another way of saying, "I have no defined need for physical performance." Being prepared for anything is the same as being prepared for nothing.

I strongly disagree with the above, and I've been waiting for an opportunity to play the Luke card:


GPP is more general training to prepare for more sport-specific training. So GPP definitely implies a "defined need for physical performance," and does not constitute an attempt at "being prepared for anything."

Plus, even if GPP actually was an attempt to be prepared for anything, I don't agree that this is the same as "being prepared for nothing." Maybe not optimally prepared for anything, but still better prepared than an untrained person, and in many cases better prepared than a hyper-specifically trained person outside his or her niche.

 

[Antti]

I have a couple of big, long-term goals. I think the main ones are a 300kg/660lbs deadlift and the other one is competing in powerlifting. For the competing to be meaningful I expect to hit the deadlift goal first.

Now, I have no idea how long the process to reach the long-term goals will take. I can of course make an educated guess that it will take at least a couple of years, and that's saying if nothing intervenes. But I think I have enough time.

Now, the long-term goals help me plan and pick my training programs. I hope to increase some part(s) of my total every some months. In my last cycle, I put a specific number to hit in the end of ten weeks in the squat and the deadlift. In my current cycle, I try to increase my bench press and deadlift, but instead of a set single as a goal after ten weeks, I plan for a double set of doubles at a certain weight, and max attempts after that based on feel.

Having concrete numbers helps my consistency and I feel it ensures a steady progress for me. So far, I've always hit my numbers. Maybe I could do more if I did by feel or whim, but maybe I would train too hard that way. I did do good progress earlier on with training more intuitively with only certain limitations, like 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps etc. I think both styles have their place, and both require a certain amount of self-knowledge. I think I'll only get better with it in time, especially with good logs.

Some people experience that some days are so hard that they want to train lighter on those days. And some want to do more on a good day. Some people prefer to plan a lot of waviness in their programs. I've found that I get a certain amount of waviness in a linear cycle when I always do what I'm told no matter how I feel; the load doesn't wave, but my experience of it does. On the other hand, I've found that how I feel on a certain day has precious little to do with how strong I am on that day.

There are many ways to do it. I think without specific goals i can too easily start training "random acts of variety". That's great if you want to do it, but I want to get stronger. It's great: I get to lift, which I love, and in the same deal I even get stronger if I plan it correctly.

 

[Carl in Dover]

3 goals that I have (as examples)

SHORT TERM GOAL
To complete all 4 training sessions this week as per instructions. Repeat weekly

MID TERM GOAL
To complete my 8 week training program within the specified time frame. Then begin a second program.

LONG TERM GOAL
Set a new USAPL Delaware State Raw Deadlift record in the State Championships in April (I do have a number in mind)

I focus on my long term goal, and use my short and mid term goals as "checkpoints" along the way.

A older but still applicable article is Keeping the Goal The Goal | DD

I refer to a quote by Dan John,

• "The goal is to keep the goal, the goal! Focus on it, don’t get caught up in a bunch of other things."

That is not to be taken as I will be so caught up in the goal that life will pass me by, I do take time to stop and smell the roses....

Carl in Dover

 

[offwidth]

There are things we can do now and things we believe we need to be able to do in the future. All training is the attempt to bridge that divide. More importantly than goals, define the required physical performance needs of the future version of you.

I think Mark Twight has a bunch of motivational writings on this subject and why, when he ran his gym, he required athletes to compete in something. The first goal is to simply find and pursue something that requires physical performance and the rest will fall into place.

I think the growth in the idea of GPP is actually hurting the goal setting process. GPP is another way of saying, "I have no defined need for physical performance." Being prepared for anything is the same as being prepared for nothing.

Someone who gets referenced a lot here also said something like ... 'training to be prepared for anything includes making a spaceship out of dental floss'

 

[Norcoaster]

I heard a nice interview with Andy galpin on JRE podcast where they were discussing what the “correct” diet was, ketogenic or not. Galpin’s comment was something to the effect of not looking at a right or wrong diet, just evaluating what your aspiration and situation dictate, and seeing which diet fits that best, which could also change over time.

I think setting goals vs setting intentions could fit that approach as well - not right or wrong, more of a choose your method. I am more of a training intention guy, though I have set lifting goals previously and enjoyed chasing them. Other people/personalities may thrive in a goal oriented training scenario.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

 

[Im out]

my long term goal is have good posture, healthy joints and be pain free at age 60+
my mid term goals are listed in my log page 1 on this forum
my short term goal currently is one-arm-swinging 32 kg bell

 

[elli]

Maybe a bit off topic?!
My signature contains my "goals".
But I have no plan or programme for how to get there. I know which pieces I have to put together but basically I let feeling guide me. During some weeks I am motivated to train a certain skill (like the pistol squat) and then move on to the next thing. Repeating what I have learnt from time to time to not lose it. Maybe the pistol maybe beneficial for bouldering and the tgu and leg strength for rowing. Or is it the other way round and my legs got stronger by doing all the other things and then the pistol happened?
Maybe you could say I am trying to train in a 'network' with as much transfer as possible.
To put it in a nutshell: the journey is the reward.

But it is a really philosophical topic actually.

 

[wespom9]

.02 coming...

Long term goals: important
Short term goals: important also. How to reconcile this with the fact that progress isn't linear, and that peaks and valleys will occur - I will ponder this one in terms of trying to answer the question "how do I know if I'm just in a trough ready to peak, or if I'm truly at a plateau?"

I think the park bench concept still fits into goal setting. Are the numbers/abilities/qualities trending in the right direction? If so, we're still on the path.

 

[North Coast Miller]

@Steve W. and I were just beginning to have a great discussion regarding whether to set goals or master the process of training. I didn't want to derail @Jak Nieuwenhuis thread regarding posture, but I do think it is an excellent subject for discussion.

So, what's your thoughts?

Right now I'm going with the idea of having a goal or destination with my training. But I do think I'll check out that book on mastery that @Steve W. mentioned.

Wouldn't "master the process of training" qualify as a goal?

As I get older I am ever more aware of specificity, and how it increasingly defines what I am "good" at. One of my goals is to increase variety in ways that improve my capabilities. To me this is still a goal, though a lot more ambiguous than declaring "I want to hit 10 one arm pushups".

To me one of the best most rewarding things about pursuing the process (in this context) is watching my numbers go up in unrelated exercises, something I found seldom happened when chasing more specific targets and to me is the true implied goal of exercise beyond basic metabolic health.

 

[North Coast Miller]

A late thought to this topic - what if you are training a routine, periodizing or no, and simply adding resistance, TUT, reps, sets etc in response to progress?

You aren't training with a specific goal but are progressing. Rather than a program you are simply using basic principles of progressive resistance. Is this a park bench or bus bench?

Does park bench imply holding pattern?