Kettlebell Goblet squat WTH effect!

[guardian7]

I realized last month that I have been really neglecting the squat pattern in favor of hinge and pressing/pullup movements. I don't have a gym membership or a squat rack at home.

I have done goblet squats before as my S&S warmup but I read a Dan John article about a goal of doing half bodyweight squats for 20. I am not there yet.

So anyway, I started doing light goblet squats in more frequent volume. It really hit my abs so I searched the internet to confirm that this is common and not an especially weak area on my part. It is.

Today in my Muay Thai class, I had a real WTH moment. My core strength was MUCH better after only a couple of weeks. We did a conditioning class with handshake planks (pushup shake your partner's hand in plank position repeat on the other side for a minute), wheelbarrow races (hold partner's feet), one leg planks, one leg and one arm birdog planks. etc. Very challenging for a guy pushing 50 not in the fitness industry. I outperformed kids much younger than my middle aged self and previous performance and felt much stronger even after recovering from a cold this week.

Then, it was between classes and a free workout. While practicing Thai kicks, I noticed that my middle kick was higher than before. I attribute this to greater prying frequency that I include in my goblet sets. One pry per set. This seemed to be MUCH more effective than my usual stretching. There are no other factors I can isolate apart from the goblet squats. There was no change in my passive nightly stretching routine.

In short, seeing the goblet squat as just a way for beginners to learn the barbell squat or seeing it just as a warmup for S&S may be a common mistake and selling it short. Load it up to half bodyweight for reps (this is the only exercise I prefer dumbells to kettlebells after 20 KG) before switching to double kettlebell front squats and continue I think.

If you are like me and not "advanced" and neglecting squats, hinging only is not a substitute. Give them another go. For context, I have a double bodyweight deadlift.

One might even do a reverse S&S with swings 3*10 as the warmup and then goblet squat sets of 5*10 or 7*7 or something for variety for a month or two.

I am going to drop my pressing and focus on frequent, light-medium goblet squats with my TGUs and carries till Christmas for strength-endurance/ knee-hip health and mobility and see where it leads.

For more good info see:
Goblet Squat: How To Use It To Move Better, To Become Stronger, and When Not To Use It At All

 

[Kozushi]

Absolutely! The carry over of kettlebell training to dynamic sports is different from that of the barbell or weight machines. The odd positions we adopt in kettlebell training mimic the odd twisted positions we find ourselves in in our dynamic sports like Muay Thai, Judo or BJJ. The goblet squat challenges your balance in a different way from barbell squats and it engages your upper body differently, even though it is a much lighter exercise than with a heavy barbell. I also add in goblet curls at the bottom of the squat sets as described in the book.

 

[Bauer]

Awesome! Thanks for sharing @guardian7

How do you pry? On the last or first rep?

 

[Brookes]

but I read a Dan John article about a goal of doing half bodyweight squats for 20

Do you have a link to this article? Is the 50% BW linked to the GS or to the squat in general? I only know the "Strength Standards" from his book "Intervention" and for the Squat (no mention if back or front squat) there is a suggested 1 RM of full bodyweight or 15RM full bodyweight as a game changer.

 

[guardian7]

Do you have a link to this article? Is the 50% BW linked to the GS or to the squat in general? I only know the "Strength Standards" from his book "Intervention" and for the Squat (no mention if back or front squat) there is a suggested 1 RM of full bodyweight or 15RM full bodyweight as a game changer.

Sorry, it wasn't Dan John but I am sure he would not be against the idea.

The Test

1. Grab a kettlebell or dumbbell that's 50% of your bodyweight.
2. Squat it for 25 reps.

Don't start the barbell squat until you can meet this standard.

Tip: The Goblet Squat Test | T Nation

 

[guardian7]

Awesome! Thanks for sharing @guardian7

How do you pry? On the last or first rep?

First set in the beginning to arm up and then last set for the rest of them. I through in the bicep curls randomly on the last set as well. Not very consistently. Depends what I want to work on that day. I am not strong enough to spend a lot of time prying and curling, I need to work on my squat volume.

 

[guardian7]

Absolutely! The carry over of kettlebell training to dynamic sports is different from that of the barbell or weight machines. The odd positions we adopt in kettlebell training mimic the odd twisted positions we find ourselves in in our dynamic sports like Muay Thai, Judo or BJJ. The goblet squat challenges your balance in a different way from barbell squats and it engages your upper body differently, even though it is a much lighter exercise than with a heavy barbell. I also add in goblet curls at the bottom of the squat sets as described in the book.

I agree. Holding the Kettlebell in the goblet squat position seems to work the upper back as well and feels like good shoulder stability work.

 

[Adam R Mundorf]

I agree. Holding the Kettlebell in the goblet squat position seems to work the upper back as well and feels like good shoulder stability work.

Steve Maxwell says even doing the goblet squat with a light weight is equal to doing a barbell back-squat with triple the weight because of the tension on the upper back.

 

[Benjamin]

I agree. Holding the Kettlebell in the goblet squat position seems to work the upper back as well and feels like good shoulder stability work.

Goblet squat and front squat definitely help the upper back. It will become the limiting factor before the legs do.
I had a weak front squat, quads, but they adapted. Now it's my upper back that needs to recover more. In a good way. I don't think I have a strong front squat yet, but I can tell where the recovery points are.

 

[guardian7]

Goblet squat and front squat definitely help the upper back. It will become the limiting factor before the legs do.
I had a weak front squat, quads, but they adapted. Now it's my upper back that needs to recover more. In a good way. I don't think I have a strong front squat yet, but I can tell where the recovery points are.

Soreness is often a good predictor of weak areas. I was surprised to find my calves responding to goblet squats. I clearly lacked some strength-stability.

 

[Antti]

Steve Maxwell says even doing the goblet squat with a light weight is equal to doing a barbell back-squat with triple the weight because of the tension on the upper back.

Equal?

 

[Oscar]

Steve Maxwell says even doing the goblet squat with a light weight is equal to doing a barbell back-squat with triple the weight because of the tension on the upper back.

Goblet squats are certainly harder than back squats at the same weight, but I doubt they give the same results as 3x the weight in back squats. Steve Maxwell is a senior instructor and probably knows what he is talking about, but this one in particular I don't see it.

I personally do 3x5 with 32 kg every day... I doubt I could do 3x5 back squats with 96 kg every day.

 

[Bret S.]

Goblet squats are certainly harder than back squats at the same weight, but I doubt they give the same results as 3x the weight in back squats.

A goblet squat with the beast would be a nice strength level to achieve. 40k is the most I work with (for now)

 

[Antti]

To be clear the goblet squat is a fine exercise and I can see it well be enough for lots of people. But if we're looking for strength and a whole body effect it just doesn't compare to the back squat. I get it that the goblet squat is hard on the midsection and the upper back. But the back squat is hard on the whole body on another level.

 

[guardian7]

Goblet squats are certainly harder than back squats at the same weight, but I doubt they give the same results as 3x the weight in back squats. Steve Maxwell is a senior instructor and probably knows what he is talking about, but this one in particular I don't see it.

I personally do 3x5 with 32 kg every day... I doubt I could do 3x5 back squats with 96 kg every day.

Oscar,

How do you find working out everyday? To give me some context, what would you be able to do with your KG in terms of goblet squats if you did it only three times a week? I am having some success with a minimalist secondary workouts of one set a day pushups, pullups, arm hangs, bottom up press. etc. I am almost 50 and have a sedentary job. The volume is tiny but it seem to be effective and the idea of "everyday" or every weekday for me seems to prevent skipping a "workout." I just lift for general health, so it seems to work.

In short, can you comment on your thinking and the effectiveness of light but everyday workouts?

 

[Bill Been]

Soreness is not a predictor of anything. It’s certainly not an indicator of effectiveness. Soreness means you did something you don’t routinely do and that what you did had an eccentric muscle action.

People are being characteristically charitable to the notion that a Goblet squat is in any way comparable in effectiveness- let alone multiples of times MORE effective- to a barbell back squat. We must not abandon rationality because we found that Goblet squats allow people reliable, easy-to-coach entry into the squat movement.

“You cannot make 24 kilos ‘count’ like 100 kilos just by making the movement harder” CJ Gotcher.

 

[Oscar]

@guardian7 I've been doing it as S&S warm up, so it is low volume and light weight, with focus on mobility.

Daily practice has worked great for me for many things: mobility, consistency, fat loss and it feels great. The one important thing it hasn't improved much is hypertrophy. Having trained consistently for 2 years, I would appreciate having grown some more muscle. But then again, the program is not aimed for that goal. The overall balance is very very positive though.

Is there any reason why you are going to go light? I personally prefer going for heavier goblet squats mixed with bodyweight only squats. The heavier GS really sink you down between your legs, and also put a lot of weight forward to work on ankle dorsiflexion. And the bodyweight only squats, staying at the bottom, teach you how to tense and relax yourself to hold a comfortable bottom position, after having forced the mobility with the heavy weight.

 

[Bret S.]

I am having some success with a minimalist secondary workouts of one set a day pushups, pullups, arm hangs, bottom up press. etc

^^Sounds good ^^
Maybe add renegade rows, I love to superset goblet squats with RR, it's a killer combo for building tension skills IMO, better tension translates to more strength.

 

[Bret S.]

Soreness is not a predictor of anything. It’s certainly not an indicator of effectiveness. Soreness means you did something you don’t routinely do and that what you did had an eccentric muscle action.

People are being characteristically charitable to the notion that a Goblet squat is in any way comparable in effectiveness- let alone multiples of times MORE effective- to a barbell back squat. We must not abandon rationality because we found that Goblet squats allow people reliable, easy-to-coach entry into the squat movement.

“You cannot make 24 kilos ‘count’ like 100 kilos just by making the movement harder” CJ Gotcher.

It seems the only thing G squat and B squat have in common is the squat part, other than that we're talking apples and oranges.

Goblets are my go to squat movement for tension skill, mobility and all around strength. They are great for many things but not a substitute for back squats IMO.

I think it's hard compare effectiveness as each have a different focus, for me a GS is more an upper body focus and just happens to have a squat as part of the exercise.

 

[Steve Freides]

Steve Maxwell was, but is no longer, a Senior instructor - he was part of our old company's program but left a few years before StrongFirst was created.

Soreness means you're sore. You can be sore for a variety of reasons, including having "found" some muscles or a movement pattern that's new to you, and if those muscles or that movement pattern is/are something you value, then it's been a useful indicator.

At StrongFirst, we teach the goblet squat to help pattern the squat. It's a warmup exercise with a twist - if you're weak in some areas, it will help strengthen them. Loading it - to half bodyweight or to anything past a moderate weight, will be more challenging to things other than the legs for most people, and for most people, one of the main reasons to squat is to build strength and size in the legs. "One of", not "the only," please. I think it's best to think of a heavy goblet squat as a test, but not as a way to train regularly.

I confess to not seeing the point in all these comparisons. Goblet squats can serve as a movement screen, they can serve as warmup, they can serve as a strength exercise that is different in its training effect than a barbell back squat. Let's remember that strength can be achieved by a variety of means, and that we all want to own a variety of movement patterns, but that we all don't need to load every movement pattern heavily. Choose what to do and what to load based on an assessment of your movement patterns and the needs of your chosen sport, if you have one.

JMO.

-S-