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Kettlebell Good calorific deficit for ROP

JC84

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Hello all,

I'm working through the Rite of Passage program, currently doing 5x5 ladders with the 24kg on the heavy day and trying to compress the rest time whilst I get stronger at pressing the 32kg.

During the holiday season, and, to be fair the run up to it also, I put on an extra 8 or 9 kg's which I now need to dial back. I'm doing so on a calorific deficit of about 500cal a day at the moment, but, having just done my first heavy day of ROP since reducing, I'm feeling pretty hungry!

My goal is, of course, to lose the snacks and booze weight without losing muscle. Has anyone done this particular program in a deficit? Is this too much or about right? I'm thinking I won't bother progressing to ladders with the 32 until I reach my goal weight and am back to regular calories, so not too concerned with gaining lots of strength - just maintaining current strength and muscle as much as possible.

P.s Am Male, 38yrs, 5ft 11in , 94kgs currently. Looking to be around 85kg.

Many Thanks,
 
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Kind of similar situation here, trying to drop weight coming three months and want to minimize muscle loss. So I am focused on hypertrophy training although I dislike and dropped training for strength.

I wonder if I could train for strength to preserve muscle? I could not find an answer so I decied to do hypertrophy. .

I believe strength and muscle not always go hand to hand. When people recommend trying to use the same weights and not lose strength they are indeed already on an hypertrophy program and their advice is again for a hypertrophy program. But maybe I am wrong.

500 calorie deficit is the ideal deficit prescribed by experts. But the problem is how to know the baseline? How to decrease the calories further step by step when you body adopts to that 500 calorie deficit that you have created.

One other challenge of keeping a calorie deficit is, if you start moving around less, and if you calculate your calorie in take wrong ( which can be done very easily) you write off 500 calorie deficit.

So my method of diet is to be very strict with what I eat and drink rather than how much. When you don’t drink any calories, when you cook your self only with wholefoods and you don’t touch anything with flour then loosing weight is easy.
 
@JC84 I am not sure for that program specifically, but your approach sounds good! I'm doing the same since 1/1, about a 500cal/day deficit though I'm using Weight Watchers, and also trying to make sure I get 40g of protein 3x/day (for you I might suggest 50g protein 3x/day, or 150-180 total). And training like usual. A small-ish carbohydrate snack an hour or so before training. So far, so good. Good luck to you!
 
A small-ish carbohydrate snack an hour or so before training.

If I had one big nutrition lesson I've learned when trying to train in a deficit of the years, it's this.

For me:

ultra low carb + deficit = horrible training performance

vs

moderate carb + deficit = maintaining training performance*

*although don't expect any new PRs

Ultra low carb also appears to jack up my metabolism / thyrroid more, something @Geoff Neupert mentioned in one of his recent PDFs.
 
Hello all,

I'm working through the Rite of Passage program, currently doing 5x5 ladders with the 24kg on the heavy day and trying to compress the rest time whilst I get stronger at pressing the 32kg.

During the holiday season, and, to be fair the run up to it also, I put on an extra 8 or 9 kg's which I now need to dial back. I'm doing so on a calorific deficit of about 500cal a day at the moment, but, having just done my first heavy day of ROP since reducing, I'm feeling pretty hungry!

My goal is, of course, to lose the snacks and booze weight without losing muscle. Has anyone done this particular program in a deficit? Is this too much or about right? I'm thinking I won't bother progressing to ladders with the 32 until I reach my goal weight and am back to regular calories, so not too concerned with gaining lots of strength - just maintaining current strength and muscle as much as possible.

P.s Am Male, 38yrs, 5ft 11in , 94kgs currently. Looking to be around 85kg.

Many Thanks,

I would eat for maintenance on the light and medium lifting days, eat a surplus on the heavy day and eat light (0-500 calories) on rest days / low effort days. I find this is the best way to perform well on a cut.
 
I was on a deficit and did RoP and it was alright, however, results were specific to all the factors that only relate to me. I am somewhat new to strength training, but 'subjectively' saw a bit quicker improvement, however on the lighter side of weights, after going back to maintenance on August 15th to finish up the work with 16kg. I tried to put carbs around the work sessions so that I could get through the swings, C&P, some pushups and of course snatches.

Screenshot 2023-01-06 at 2.07.02 pm.png

If you're happy with maintaining strength and focusing on training, while losing weight, that sounds like a great goal. I am just starting a new deficit period, currently doing 3x 24kg presses to try and break through to 5 reps. I would not expect to make this goal while on deficit just looking to really own the 20kg.

I do like this article which essentially says, The “Calories In, Calories Out” Confusion: A Comprehensive Guide to Understanding Energy Balance – Sigma Nutrition:
"When engaging in resistance training of sufficient stimulus over a sufficient period of time, there will be creation of new muscle and therefore an increase in body mass, even without a caloric surplus. In fact, even in a calorie deficit it is possible to gain lean mass, given the right conditions. The stimulus placed on the muscle is by far the most important variable. And from a nutrition perspective, if an appropriately high supply of protein is provided, ideally distributed across the day in 3+ high-protein meals, then there should be accrual of new muscle tissue. Of course, other factors dictate how likely this is and the extent of the muscle gain (genetics, training experience, proximity to genetic potential, returning from a phase of de-training, etc.). However, to maximize the amount of muscle gained in a certain period of time, a slight calorie surplus provides the best environment, all else being equal. "
 
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I'm working through the Rite of Passage program, currently doing 5x5 ladders with the 24kg on the heavy day and trying to compress the rest time whilst I get stronger at pressing the 32kg.
If you'll forgive me questioning the questions you're asking, you've listed a lot of potentially conflicting goals. At 94 kg or 85 kg, pressing the 24 is likely not too hard for you, and you mention also pressing the 32 kg, which means you're doing pressing in addition to the ROP and all while you're trying to compress the rest periods and eat in a caloric deficit and you're doing a strength program but you're not too concerned about strength.

I recommend dialing it back somehow, and putting those goals into an order and going after them one at a time. 5 x 5 ladders with what might be a too-light weight and compressing rest periods is going to tilt towards hypertrophy and not strength, and it would make anyone hungry. I'd start by considering not running the ROP unless you're willing to gain a little weight while you're on it, and maybe even considering a different program for pressing altogether, or may Dry Fighting Weight or similar.

-S-
 
Thanks all for taking the time to reply.

@Ege I can't resist flour, so calorie counting for me!

@Anna C I could probs do with trying to get more protein, but often eat what I'm cooking for my kids to save making every meal twice. Maybe I need to keep a pack of beef jerky with me at all times or something.

@watchnerd I'm in no danger of skipping carbs. They're too delicious for me to go without.

@3letterslong That's sounds worth a try.

@Mark Limbaga At the moment (Bear with me):
-Light days = Long as I feel like for C+P's and don't worry about hitting a certain number snatches in the allotted time. I do pull ups alongside the C+P's.
-Medium days = Long as I like for C+P's and 15 swings a minute for as many minutes as the dice roll. I do pull ups alongside the C+P's here also.
-Heavy Days = At the moment I do 5 ladders of 5 rungs - 6 minutes per ladder. I don't time the rungs, just complete each ladder to 5 within 6 mins, hopefully with enough time to spare to get a decent rest between each ladder. So the C+P's take 30 minutes total. I don't do pull ups on this day, just focus on the C+P. Aim is to reduce each block by, say, 10 secs a week, so 5.50 per ladder next week. Swings I do 20 per minute for as many mins as the dice.

Every 4th heavy day or so I see how many times I can C+P the 32kg. At the moment is 3R and 2L. When 5 both sides I'll switch to doing the ladders with it. In the meantime, hoping to just get super competent with the 24kg.

@Hausman I'll take a look at the article!

@Steve Freides My overall goal in starting ROP, was to get to the point of C+P the 32kg for 5 ladders of 5 rungs, and getting to the snatch test with the 24kg. I haven't got any heavier bells, so wasn't going to take it further than that in terms of strength (i.e half bodyweight press). Plan instead was to then switch to a double kettlebell program as I do own two 24's.

Pressing the 24 definitely was a challenge when I started. I'm relatively new to exercise, and beyond doing S+S up to simple timed before this, haven't lifted weights before. I'm now pretty comfortable with it, but, again, because I'm pretty new to the exercise game, I'm happy to progress quite slowly and get really competent with my current weight. Age and lack of experience mean I'm pretty injury averse. Prior to the kettlebells I tried a few months doing high rep bodyweight routines - burpees and pull ups etc. and ended up with tendonitis in my elbows and my lower back feeling arguably worse than when I embarked on exercise.

As far as pressing the 32 - I'm testing it every 4th week or so in place of the heavy day. As mentioned to Mark above - was looking to get 5 C+P's each side before I made it my ladder weight instead of the 24. Currently 3R and 2L. Now and again I'l pick it up on an off day and just try a press each side to see how it's feeling, but not doing more than that.

I'm alright gaining a little weight on the ROP - but alot my recent weight gain is just me fattening myself up. Beyond festive gluttony, l also had a run of illnesses this winter - Covid / Strep Throat / Stomach bug, which all took time out from exercising and progressing, and also lead to me feasting after the famine of each.

In summary, I am looking to get stronger, but also happy to take it at an easy pace. That said, I don't want to take steps back whilst I lose the Christmas weight, and, alongside getting stronger (I couldn't lift the 32 at all when I started ROP), there's defs been some hypertrophy also, so would be nice to would be nice to hold onto that too.

Hope that makes sense. Thanks again all!
 
A few things..

1. Any chance you have a vid? My experience here so far is that one detail makes a big difference so it will help if we can spot what you can do better

2. While you can gain strength in a deficit, it is best done on maintenance or even a slight surplus.. so if your goal is to shed fat, the focus then should shift to maintaining strength

Hope this helps
 
Hi @Mark Limbaga,

Please find:

24kg: 24_2 reps

32kg: 32_1 rep

Thanks for taking the time.

P.s I don't usually workout in slippers!

Best,
While fairly safe here are a few things you can improve to make your presses much stronger

1. Allow more knee bend in the clean as you drop the bell from the rack

2. If you can tighten your abs a bit prior to pressing, you will be a lot more stable

3. As the bell moves off from the chest, squeeze your glutes

For the 32kg press, remember that the larger the bell, the more mass isn't stacked under your structure so shift your hip under the bell right before you press

Hope this helps
 
@Mark Limbaga Thanks very much for the feedback.

On the hip shifting, if you don't mind, say I was pressing on my right, would this be achieved by leaning my body slightly left (legs/ankles don't move and shoulders shift left) or pushing my hip right, in a belly dancerish way (legs/ankles lean a bit right and shoulders don't move)?

Does that make sense?

Best,
 
You'll see me shift my hip here when I do the single bell variations of iron cardio hope this helps

 
Thanks all for taking the time to reply.

@Ege I can't resist flour, so calorie counting for me!

@Anna C I could probs do with trying to get more protein, but often eat what I'm cooking for my kids to save making every meal twice. Maybe I need to keep a pack of beef jerky with me at all times or something.

@watchnerd I'm in no danger of skipping carbs. They're too delicious for me to go without.

@3letterslong That's sounds worth a try.

@Mark Limbaga At the moment (Bear with me):
-Light days = Long as I feel like for C+P's and don't worry about hitting a certain number snatches in the allotted time. I do pull ups alongside the C+P's.
-Medium days = Long as I like for C+P's and 15 swings a minute for as many minutes as the dice roll. I do pull ups alongside the C+P's here also.
-Heavy Days = At the moment I do 5 ladders of 5 rungs - 6 minutes per ladder. I don't time the rungs, just complete each ladder to 5 within 6 mins, hopefully with enough time to spare to get a decent rest between each ladder. So the C+P's take 30 minutes total. I don't do pull ups on this day, just focus on the C+P. Aim is to reduce each block by, say, 10 secs a week, so 5.50 per ladder next week. Swings I do 20 per minute for as many mins as the dice.

Every 4th heavy day or so I see how many times I can C+P the 32kg. At the moment is 3R and 2L. When 5 both sides I'll switch to doing the ladders with it. In the meantime, hoping to just get super competent with the 24kg.

@Hausman I'll take a look at the article!

@Steve Freides My overall goal in starting ROP, was to get to the point of C+P the 32kg for 5 ladders of 5 rungs, and getting to the snatch test with the 24kg. I haven't got any heavier bells, so wasn't going to take it further than that in terms of strength (i.e half bodyweight press). Plan instead was to then switch to a double kettlebell program as I do own two 24's.

Pressing the 24 definitely was a challenge when I started. I'm relatively new to exercise, and beyond doing S+S up to simple timed before this, haven't lifted weights before. I'm now pretty comfortable with it, but, again, because I'm pretty new to the exercise game, I'm happy to progress quite slowly and get really competent with my current weight. Age and lack of experience mean I'm pretty injury averse. Prior to the kettlebells I tried a few months doing high rep bodyweight routines - burpees and pull ups etc. and ended up with tendonitis in my elbows and my lower back feeling arguably worse than when I embarked on exercise.

As far as pressing the 32 - I'm testing it every 4th week or so in place of the heavy day. As mentioned to Mark above - was looking to get 5 C+P's each side before I made it my ladder weight instead of the 24. Currently 3R and 2L. Now and again I'l pick it up on an off day and just try a press each side to see how it's feeling, but not doing more than that.

I'm alright gaining a little weight on the ROP - but alot my recent weight gain is just me fattening myself up. Beyond festive gluttony, l also had a run of illnesses this winter - Covid / Strep Throat / Stomach bug, which all took time out from exercising and progressing, and also lead to me feasting after the famine of each.

In summary, I am looking to get stronger, but also happy to take it at an easy pace. That said, I don't want to take steps back whilst I lose the Christmas weight, and, alongside getting stronger (I couldn't lift the 32 at all when I started ROP), there's defs been some hypertrophy also, so would be nice to would be nice to hold onto that too.

Hope that makes sense. Thanks again all!
You'll see me shift my hip here when I do the single bell variations of iron cardio hope this helps


@Mark Limbaga hats off to this video. What is the weight of those bells? And IMHO, perfect technique.

I have one question though. Double cleans, snatches with those weights with that form, is amazing. I was a bit surprised with the range of motion of rows. Please don’t get me wrong, I watch the video for the beauty of cleans and snatches, not trying to critique you, but just wondering if the bell that you snatch is heavy for rows for you?
 
@Mark Limbaga hats off to this video. What is the weight of those bells? And IMHO, perfect technique.

I have one question though. Double cleans, snatches with those weights with that form, is amazing. I was a bit surprised with the range of motion of rows. Please don’t get me wrong, I watch the video for the beauty of cleans and snatches, not trying to critique you, but just wondering if the bell that you snatch is heavy for rows for you?
I have to add the beauty of squats as well…
 
@Mark Limbaga hats off to this video. What is the weight of those bells? And IMHO, perfect technique.

I have one question though. Double cleans, snatches with those weights with that form, is amazing. I was a bit surprised with the range of motion of rows. Please don’t get me wrong, I watch the video for the beauty of cleans and snatches, not trying to critique you, but just wondering if the bell that you snatch is heavy for rows for you?
Are you saying you think Mark's row should go further back at the top? It looks fine to me - his elbow is past the line of his torso and he's maintaining square posture to the front.

-S-
 
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