Great examples of heavy kettlebell hardstyle snatches

DaveS

Level 2 Valued Member
Yes, some similarities for sure, and the heavier it is, the more there are, but also, so many differences! Here's my heavy KB snatch 32kg, and my barbell snatch 85 lb / 38kg... kettlebell uses elastic recoil at the bottom to re-snatch, kettlebell is conducive to reps in a set, kettlebell is one hand, kettlebell starts higher, kettlebell must be caught at the top whereas with barbell, you squat under it. Barbell snatch has first pull, second pull, third pull (under the bar), recovery. I can do the kettlebell snatch much better and am fairly advanced with that weight whereas that's a beginner weight for barbell snatch.... But I've done an estimated 10,000 kettlebell snatches and only a few hundred barbell snatches, so I have a long way to go yet! It's surprising they even have the same name... But I guess the idea is "from bottom position to overhead in one uninterrupted movement" so that criteria does fit both.
True enough Anna! Very different as well ss similar, thanks for sharing your videos, your 32kg kb snatches looks how mine feels (I’ve yet to video myself with that weight) needing to squat more like we mentioned. I’ve never barbell snatched but can tell from watching and from many comments its very technical and time intensive to master and why I wouldn’t go there myself preferring minimalist equipment approach of callisthenics and kbs but still very interesting to see the comparison by the same person, thanks!

Dave.
 

DaveS

Level 2 Valued Member
I don't know exactly his height/bw, but I assume he's below 6ft and, accordingly, around 180 lbs. It seems like he snatches 24kg, so hinge is exemplar. However, the guy is very strong nonetheless. I love stuff he does.
Thanks Alexander, yes i was estimating 6ft+ and perhaps 200lbs so 24kg relatively light for him so hinging so well makes sense, be interesting to see him with a 32 or 36+ to see if he has to squat more or can maintain such a strict hinge, good strong technical form either way though! 💪

Dave.
 

Eric Addis

Level 5 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Do you know the height and weight of the guy doing them? He looks big and so I wonder what the relative weight is to his bodyweight and so might be why he can keep more of a hinge rather than squat? Great form example regardless, thanks!

Dave.
I don't know exactly his height/bw, but I assume he's below 6ft and, accordingly, around 180 lbs. It seems like he snatches 24kg, so hinge is exemplar. However, the guy is very strong nonetheless. I love stuff he does.
Thanks Alexander, yes i was estimating 6ft+ and perhaps 200lbs so 24kg relatively light for him so hinging so well makes sense, be interesting to see him with a 32 or 36+ to see if he has to squat more or can maintain such a strict hinge, good strong technical form either way though! 💪

Dave.
I know Os, he's newly certified SF Elite, and currently weighs in the low 160's and stands approx 5'7".

A strong dude, with precision technique
 

DaveS

Level 2 Valued Member
I know Os, he's newly certified SF Elite, and currently weighs in the low 160's and stands approx 5'7".

A strong dude, with precision technique
Oh wow, he seemed much bigger in the video but actually similar size to myself then, I (Q&D sprint) snatch a 24kg usually too with it seeming optimal for power and the 32kg feeling like heavy snatching currently. Thanks for the info Eric.

Dave.
 

Os Aponte

Level 4 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Hello. The weight I am using on the post shared of me in this discussion is 28KG. I weight 162LBS and I am 5''6" This post is me doing 36KG snatches for 5 reps each side, which is where I top off. Say what you will, but 'aint no fast and loose like Iron Core Fast & Loose. And if you aren't listening to T'jader while training... What are you even doing?
http://instagr.am/p/BuKQd9ChRGs/
 
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DaveS

Level 2 Valued Member
Hello. The weight I am using on the post shared of me in this discussion is 28KG. I weight 162LBS and I am 5''6" This post is me doing 36KG snatches for 5 reps each side, which is where I top off. Say what you will, but 'aint no fast and loose like Iron Core Fast & Loose. And if you aren't listening to T'jader while training... What are you even doing?
http://instagr.am/p/BuKQd9ChRGs/
Hey Os,

Thanks for posting your stats, 5’6”! Wow video distortion, id never had guessed that from the videos.

Impressive snatching technically and to use a 36kg with such good form.
What’s your take on the idea that ‘you gotta add more squat to the hinge as the kb weight gets heavier and heavier’?

T’Jader dance to finish...😆 groovin!...

Dave.
 

Os Aponte

Level 4 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Hey Os,

Thanks for posting your stats, 5’6”! Wow video distortion, id never had guessed that from the videos.

Impressive snatching technically and to use a 36kg with such good form.
What’s your take on the idea that ‘you gotta add more squat to the hinge as the kb weight gets heavier and heavier’?

T’Jader dance to finish...😆 groovin!...

Dave.
Hi Dave,

I prefer to adhere to pure and faithful technique and the squatty version of any ballistic is not an attractive option to me. I do my best to understand the criteria and let my form dictate the load. If I have to fundamentally change the dynamics of a movement to perform it, I have to question if I should be doing it, to begin with.
 

Alexander Halford

Level 7 Valued Member
I prefer to adhere to pure and faithful technique and the squatty version of any ballistic is not an attractive option to me. I do my best to understand the criteria and let my form dictate the load. If I have to fundamentally change the dynamics of a movement to perform it, I have to question if I should be doing it, to begin with.
Sign under every word.

As for squatty hinge, here are my thoughts.
For some, it's not possible to obtain a full range hinge with locked knees - I'd hold hamstrings mobility accountable for that, but I may be wrong. It is not a big deal, if it's unlocked slightly, and knee is above a middle of the foot level. What I don't like, and it's widely used by many, it's a toes 45 degrees out, half-sumo stance, it takes knees forward a lot, and makes it significantly squatty. Just my opinion...
 

Brett Jones

StrongFirst Director of Education
Master Certified Instructor
Beast Tamer
Out of curiosity
Could someone/everyone please identify (pic or video and description) a "squatty" hinge and a not squatty hinge?

I am curious as to how folks are defining these two.
Thank you
 

crazycanuck

Level 8 Valued Member
Sign under every word.

As for squatty hinge, here are my thoughts.
For some, it's not possible to obtain a full range hinge with locked knees - I'd hold hamstrings mobility accountable for that, but I may be wrong. It is not a big deal, if it's unlocked slightly, and knee is above a middle of the foot level. What I don't like, and it's widely used by many, it's a toes 45 degrees out, half-sumo stance, it takes knees forward a lot, and makes it significantly squatty. Just my opinion...
Thanks @Anna C for sharing these videos.....amazing instructional examples!


@Alexander Halford I am wondering about foot stance sometimes myself with things like swings and squats. I just did a random squat or two reading this, and I need to keep my feet about 30 degrees. Pointing almost completely forward, I cannot get near the depth, but I wonder if that is to do with being female and femurs/inset into hip socket/assorted angles different from males. But yeah extreme 45 degree and feet very wide I think knee dips forward past the midline of the foot for sure....and definitely agree with the hamstring flexibility part....
 

Alexander Halford

Level 7 Valued Member
Thanks @Anna C for sharing these videos.....amazing instructional examples!


@Alexander Halford I am wondering about foot stance sometimes myself with things like swings and squats. I just did a random squat or two reading this, and I need to keep my feet about 30 degrees. Pointing almost completely forward, I cannot get near the depth, but I wonder if that is to do with being female and femurs/inset into hip socket/assorted angles different from males. But yeah extreme 45 degree and feet very wide I think knee dips forward past the midline of the foot for sure....and definitely agree with the hamstring flexibility part....
You're absolutely right. You can't squat deep with the straight pointed toes, unless you take the knees very much forward and having a main load on knees and quads. Equally men and women need to point toes out (open hips) to have the main load on hams, glutes and back.
There's also a stance matter, but it's personal, depends on how individual's frame is built, and if he's quad or hams dominant.
 

Alexander Halford

Level 7 Valued Member
Out of curiosity
Could someone/everyone please identify (pic or video and description) a "squatty" hinge and a not squatty hinge?

I am curious as to how folks are defining these two.
Thank you
Thanks for joining the discussion, maybe it will clarify the subject.
In my understanding, the clear hinge is : the knees will remain at the same level/height both at standing position and at hinge position. No problem unlock the knee joint and have it forward. If the knee goes visually lower towards the ground at the hinge vs standing position, and the butt descends down instead of pushing back, it's squatty.
Without claiming what's right or wrong. That's why there's us, users, at discussion, and specialists - to clarify.
 

Alexander Halford

Level 7 Valued Member
Just to put here positive example:
Motz hinge.
pixlr_20200926140552801.jpg
Despite the wide stance (passage for 2 48kg bells), knees are forward, but not lower, unlike it seems visually, one knee above the line and one below makes the perspective. Glutes are at the same level. Amazing strength and technique.
 

DaveS

Level 2 Valued Member
Hi Dave,

I prefer to adhere to pure and faithful technique and the squatty version of any ballistic is not an attractive option to me. I do my best to understand the criteria and let my form dictate the load. If I have to fundamentally change the dynamics of a movement to perform it, I have to question if I should be doing it, to begin with.
Hi Os,

Nicely put response, makes some sense of perhaps not being ready for the load is why more squatty hinge occurs as perhaps the hamstrings can’t withstand the load so the body instinctively protects it by changing the loading pattern by squatting more?

Dave.
 

Os Aponte

Level 4 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Sign under every word.

As for squatty hinge, here are my thoughts.
For some, it's not possible to obtain a full range hinge with locked knees - I'd hold hamstrings mobility accountable for that, but I may be wrong. It is not a big deal, if it's unlocked slightly, and knee is above a middle of the foot level. What I don't like, and it's widely used by many, it's a toes 45 degrees out, half-sumo stance, it takes knees forward a lot, and makes it significantly squatty. Just my opinion...
I'm with you. Our bodies must be able to benefit from this stuff or again, why are we doing it. If an individual understands the standard and makes a valid choice to adjust that standard to better serve their wellness, then it is a good choice. Getting squaty for the sake of going heavier is not something I promote.
 

Os Aponte

Level 4 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Hi Os,

Nicely put response, makes some sense of perhaps not being ready for the load is why more squatty hinge occurs as perhaps the hamstrings can’t withstand the load so the body instinctively protects it by changing the loading pattern by squatting more?

Dave.
Bingo. It also results in an obvious shrugging motion, necessary to bring the kettlebell overhead because there isn't adequate travel between the hips to decelerate, redirect and project the bell.
 

Brett Jones

StrongFirst Director of Education
Master Certified Instructor
Beast Tamer
Alexander,
As long as the hinge has shoulders above hips, hips above knees then it is a good hinge (the main motion of the hips is "back").
If the hips drop to be level with or below the knees then it is a squatting motion (the main motion of the hips is "down").
The Perfect Kettlebell Swing: Is There Such a Thing? | StrongFirst

The degree of knee bend will vary on a few factors—individual structure, weight being used (we see a natural change in the hinge with double KBs and the direction of force during the hinge to avoid getting pulled over backwards), and "goal" of the movement (swing vs. snatch/clean).

Can you show me an example of knees not remaining at the same height?
I'm having trouble visualizing it.

Can anyone show me an example of a squatty swing or snatch?

I think because most folks do not use an athletic hinge and instead perform more of "stiff legged" hinge there is a perception that any knee bend = a squatting motion and that it not the case.
Think vertical leap and then try to jump using the stiff legged strategy....it won't be much of vertical leap.
Instead your athletic hinge should look more like a vertical leap.
 

Alexander Halford

Level 7 Valued Member
Can you show me an example of knees not remaining at the same height?
I'm having trouble visualizing it.
I wasn't talking about the examples brought by Anna in this thread. More in general, what I see around in Instagram. At all, I have no business of showing examples of something I don't agree with, I prefer being positive.
I think because most folks do not use an athletic hinge and instead perform more of "stiff legged" hinge there is a perception that any knee bend = a squatting motion and that it not the case.
That's definitely sounds like a case. I heard "squatty" definition from people coming from classic kettlebell school, and the "stiff legged" hinge definition more or less describes the image on the right:
pixlr_20200924205157242.jpg
And I think I'm onto something here, because the image on the left is the first repetion of the set, and one the right - middle of the set. What I'm trying to say, is that SF professionals treating each rep like a separate, maximum power production, hence their performance looks much more like a "first rep", and not like "stiff legged hinge" in the middle of the endurance-oriented performance. It makes much sense to me to use the maximum possible muscles tension and contraction, and movement range. Different purposes dictate different techniques.
I'm sure not about to debate the hinge definition. Thank you for refreshing that.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
I think "more squatty" when describing a hinge for a heavy snatch is a way to describe 1) slightly more knee bend than one might have for a moderate weight swing or snatch, which brings the hips lower and also brings the knees more forward over the toes, and 2) a more deliberate loading of the bottom position, which is 2 things, 2a) the weight goes down more than back (7:00 or 7:30, as opposed to 8:00 or 8:30 in Senior SFG Woo-chae Yoon's "SFG clock"), and 2b) there is a tiny bit more time spent in the bottom position.

1601222241516.png

Not saying mine is right, but putting myself up as an example for discussion... Left/first is a heavy swing hinge, right/second is a heavy snatch hinge. Both are hinges -- but the snatch is deeper knee bend, a.k.a "more squatty." (It's not a great example of 2a above, but some of the examples in the first post are).

What you can't see in the photos, but you can definitely see in the videos in the first post in this thread, is a few extra microseconds in that bottom position. This is the 2b that I mentioned above. "Coiling the spring" as @Al Ciampa says. Really using that rebound, elastic recoil of the tissues, stretch reflex... ? Some of these terms are right and others probably are not... Perhaps someone with a better grasp on the terminology can help here. In any case, it seems to be crucial in the heavy kettlebell snatch. (IMO it can also be used to great effect in a heavy swing, but does not seem to be quite as essential... perhaps just shifts the emphasis slightly in the swing.)

1601221901424.png 1601221644927.png

Also interesting is that I'm slightly more bent over in the torso in the snatch hinge. Perhaps the overall effect is that the whole body folds up more and then has more vertical force production available to get the snatch to overhead.

(Also, a disclaimer: There could always be other confounders as well... The swing photo is from Dec 2015 when I had been doing almost all kettlebell training for strength, and the snatch photo is April 2019 when I was a lot stronger overall, and had been doing barbell strength training for 2 years prior.)
 
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