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Old Forum great T nation article on heavy swings

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Rif

Rif

Level 5 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
by Brett Contreras>
http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=5374326#.UZbIoAD8zMY.facebook

Yet  one of the things I think most heavy lifters are missing from the equation with the lighter bells is the acceleration factor.If you factor that in ( one can create TEN TIMES the face value of the bell weight IF it's not too heavy) then the forces are HUGE and would translate much better into heavy squats and deads.It's the same idea as using a speed day for the powerlifts. Why this keeps getting missed I don't know.
 
Lighter bells equates more speed work and heavier bells more strength for the hips, I guess? So which one would be more beneficial for deadlifts?

I think lighter bells and thus more speed work would be more beneficial. The hips get enough strength from conventional deadlifting, but added speed adds so much to your deadlift.
 
I've found that swining heavier bells forces me to use better form and helps improve my acceleration with lighter ones. Actually think that's true of every exercize although I haven't tried it as directly with goblet squats.
 
This article came out in the fall, so there have been many discussions about it.  There are many good points in the article and I think heavy swings are good.

However, any swing (light or heavy) can be considered speed work for a deadlift - even heavy swings are much faster than a grinding deadlift.

Here is the problem with heavy swings - everyone thinks they can do them, but not everyone is ready for them.  The grain of salt with this is that if you have not done the PM with the appropriate bell (24kg for guys, 16k for ladies) then heavy swings should not be in the discussion.  Yet -  it is not a life sentence.  Heavy swings should not change your swing technique, for the better or for the worse.

By all means swing heavy, but progress to whatever "heavy" is for you.
 
The article did touch on the issue of "I need something heavier than a kettlebell."

I get the acceleration argument, but you can only swing a KB so fast before the velocity of it injures your shoulder or you need to let go of the KB and let 'er fly!  So, lighter KBs do have inherent limitations.

As for whether KB swings are a good assistance exercise for the Olympic lifts, I am sort of testing this now.  I think they are a great way to maintain conditioning while training for Olympic lifting as it appears that swings have not impacted my strength.
 
Mike - I found that KBs were good for just that - they improved my work capacity and recovery for Olympic lifts, but they didn't improve my strength per se.
 
Geoff and Rif,

I would like to hear more from both of you regarding the strength benefits of swings.  Geoff, could you unpack the statement about how swings didn't improve your strength per se?

Rif said that swings are the best strength and conditioning exercise for 100% of the people 99% of the time.  I feel like I must be misunderstanding something here.
 
Jeffrey.

Since I can no longer barbell squat or deadlift Ican't say personally what carryover they might have. But for me recently, the switch from a volume snatch based approach to a lower volume heavy swing approach has made everything else feel much lighter. Even my presses.

The statement that I believe swings to be the S& C exercise of choice for most people lies in the fact that most people do NOTHING for strength and conditioning; hence if  they are going to do ANYTHING they should swing.

REAL athletes, people who compete on a regular basis make up such a small percentage of the 'exercising' public as to be statistically insignificant.

Once one gets up to the rarified air of Elite level athletes all rules are off. You do what make gains for you athlete. BUT for most PEOPLE training the swing diligently,and consistently and progressively will give the best gains and strength, power and conditioning they can get. And more safely than almost anything else.
 
The beast is 48kg and you can find bells up to 56kg (the biggest I've seen).  Those weights are not "heavy" - in the world of olympic lifting (the junior snatch record for the womens 48kg weight class is 95kg).  So even if you are a 20 year old 106lb female it is still considered light.  We had a junior weight lifting team at our facility until a few years ago and our lightweight females used the 24kg to swing on their recovery days. 

For me (235lbs) swinging the 24kg bell will get forces of around 570lbs for a fraction of a second at the very bottom position of the swing - not the full ROM.  Swinging the beast drops that to 520lbs.  Drops.  Velocity is much more important than load when it comes to the forces produced during the kb swing.  I wouldn't classify myself as a strong individual, but I have been swinging bells for about 7 years now, and for me to get the most force production the 40kg is the king (611lbs). 

Again, these high loads are only for a split second at the bottom of the swing position.  There could be specific carry over to the initial pull of the deadlift, but the rest will just be a carryover of general athleticism/strength.

Like Riff said for most people these loads will generate noticable gains in strength, power, and conditioning - and lets be honest, most people (that we train and that are reading this) are going to fall into this category.  I think (my own personal opinion here) is that people don't see gains with swings because they don't spend enough time swinging - they get distracted by the shiney object and move on to something fancier.  But, that is my opinion.
 
A question I've had a while in regard to Bret's article and others: doesn't using some manner of T-bar with a handle prohibit you from being able to achieve the "hike pass" movement that Pavel advocates in ETK? Dan John calls it "attacking the crotch" or something similar, but when I've tried it with a friend's T-bar, I feel like I end up ACTUALLY attacking the crotch, because the handle is too wide to go through the legs. On the other hand, as I get more proficient at KB swings, I find that the bell and my hands actually go back past the front of the hips/crotch.

I understand that the answer is probably "use kettlebells, not homemade crap devices," but given that Tim Ferris, Bret, and others advocate the T-bar swing, I'd like to see it addressed.

 
 
I use the T-Handle Swings for when I want to go heavy to build some more strength myself. Yes I cannot get the same ROM from the T-Handle than when I use a KB.
 
That almost makes it necessary to ask again, "What is so great about swings?".

On the one hand, swings are the best strength and conditioning exercise for 100% of the people 99% of the time.  That primarily applies to people who don't do anything for strength and conditioning?  You could apply the same logic to walking.  If someone doesn't do ANYTHING, then walking would be an improvement.  If a person is willing to swing, then that is better still.  If a person is willing to lift heavy weights, is that better still?

It is not saying much that swings are the best exercise for people who are not already doing at least something.

I realize that isn't strictly speaking what Rif said, but by itself, Rif's statement sounds like an absolute. Now it is relative, with the comparison being made to someone who currently does nothing.

On the continuum, what is good, better, and best?

I guess it is, "What are your goals?".
 
I think Riffs point is right on regarding most people who are "exercising".

At the same time 100% of my time is spent training athletes to be better at their sport.  Want to lose weight?  Go to one of our fitness centers (which soon will be a StrongFirst site - if you are interested in getting a job and leading that transition see a previous post.  Sorry Cheap plug) and sweat to the oldies with grandma bertha or seek the advice of one of the professionals there to help.  Not my gig.

That being said, I have yet to have an athlete that didn't get a benefit from swings.  The KB is the foundation of my jump training (side note, I rarely have my athletes jump).  It is not uncommon to see a 6" improvement in vertical jump and over a foot on the broadjump.  Given, that 6" increase for some of my 'athletes' is essentiallyl doubling where they start -we start training kids at the age of 10.  But, I just sent a local guy to the CFL.  Started with a 32" vertical left with a 38" vertical (this after 4 years of DI-AA football and trainnig with them - they did a great job, we just took the next step).  Also dropped his Pro-Agility (20yd shuttle) to a sub 4.00sec.  FYI-these are the numbers from his final combine, not me testing him.

All that to say, with the right programming the KB is a great tool for anyone regardless of goals and athletic (or lack of athletic) status.
 
@Jeffrey Tabb - I think you're missing the forest for the trees here. The swing is a phenomenal exercise for 99% of the population, including athletes. Brendon has an excellent post about it.

Here's the qualification of my statement - You're not me, and I'm not you. I have had VERY high levels of strength-speed developed through YEARS of explosive barbell pulls. That's why I made my statement.

And please notice, I didn't say they had zero value to me - I said they improved my ability to recover between sessions. That's very valuable. That means I can do more work, more frequently.

Combine swings and walking and you have a very powerful combination - just ask Mrs. Rif (Tracy Reifkind).

Finally, you're almost right on when you state that it comes down to "what are your goals?" I would add to that also, "And what are you willing and unwilling to do to achieve them?"

For most, swings answer those questions because most people want to "just tone up" or "just lose weight" and are willing to do very little to achieve those goals.

Hope all that makes sense.
 
I think people like me must be the most frustrating for people like you because my goals are so broad in nature.  I have a sedentary job, but I want to be strong and healthy and be able to just do stuff.  Sometimes I cut down trees and drag them to a burn pile.  Sometimes I help friends move heavy stuff.  Sometimes I go kayaking.  Sometimes I do stuff I have never done before.  At this point in time, I think the PM is the best program for me because I think it will build general all around strength and conditioning while helping me get my shoulders healthy.  There are no specific goals in ETK for the PM, other than to just keep getting better at it.  I guess I could say that my goal is to be able to do slow and steady getups with a 32 for 5 minutes with no rest between reps, and continue getting better at swings, although I never write down how many reps I did.  I just swing to a comfortable stop and when I am ready start swinging again.  But, to be honest with you, if I thought that Starting Strength would give me a bigger bang for my buck I would probably do it.  That is nothing personal about that or an us vs. them kind of statement.  It is just that I chose this program because I thought it would be the best all around program.  The PM probably gives better conditioning and all around joint health and mobility that SS, while SS probably gives better all around strength useful for moving heavy stuff, while maybe less endurance to keep on moving heavy stuff, or continuing to paddle, or drag limbs, or whatever.  That probably doesn't help much.
 
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