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Old Forum great T nation article on heavy swings

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Jeffrey,

I think I get what you are saying. I am similar to you in that I have a sendentary job and have no physical performance needs to guide my goals. But with that being said with the time and energy I do put into training I want to feel like what I am doing is some of the most effective "stuff" I could do.
 
I am no scientist but we know that the sedentary individual who does anything is a improvement but lets take that a little further and give them a tool and a time frame,less is better. The swing just wins and one who moves further in weight and even to double swings are going to become more explosive and stronger.

I have had much  healing in my back from  swings and as far as total strength and carryover ,how strong does one need to be? surely strength is a need and good posture,flexibility,speed and health but there is a point when one just tests what they can do and that actually has nothing to do with anything but personal goals,in my opinion.

 

 
 
Brandon I'd like to hear more about this guy you got to go form 32 inch vertical to 38 inch... that is a remarkable improvement!! he must have been thrilled and fist pumping when he got that 38 inches is damn high
 
I do not plan on throwing the baby out with the bath water.  I will think that swings are a great exercise no matter what.

Does this have something to do with the difference in ballistics and grinds?  How much strength gained from doing ballistics is available for grinds?  In other words, If I get stronger from swings, but don't practice grinds, and then pick up and carry a heavy object, which would be a grind, I believe that I would have been better off having practiced the swings.  But, will I have a weakness exposed from not having practiced grinds?

It seems like most of life consists of grinds.  Most of us pick up and carry stuff, but how many of us pick up and throw heavy objects?  I picked up a large branch the other day with a scorpion on it the other day and threw it after it stung me.  That was invigorating!
 
Jeffrey

Great point about most of life being about 'grinds' I agree; lots of tension everywhere, but few opportunities to accelerate or throw things. The swings fix that. And HEAVY fast swings are different than heavy SLOW(er) swings. Both have their place.

One also needs to  PRACTICE the skill of maximizing tension in order to really master it.
Two side of the same coin, both critical. Being stronger in the grinds makes the swings stronger and more powerful and vice versa.
And throwing things, i.e POWER, feels really good. Just like being Strong.:)
 
Learning to maximize tension is definitely an art.. I am still working on it, hopefully I can reach at least 80% by the time I hit 40
 
Jeffrey, if you were to throw the baby out with the bath water, that would be ballistic rather than a grind, and swings would serve you well.

So, there you go.

Jason
 
Mark and all,

 

One thing for sure, it's way easier to learn to maximize tension doing heavy squats and benches as the need for serious eccentric contractions is obvious and immediate. If you have to lower the weight before you lift it it makes it much easier to focus on tension.

And this feeds back to you other lifts very well.
 
@Jeffrey – Your question is like asking “If Car Brand X is the best in the world, then why doesn’t everyone own it?” Probably because only 1% of the population can afford to buy it.

Are Olympic lifts better at developing power than swings? I would say yes…but. The Olympic lifts require time to learn. They are hard work and demand flexibility and mobility. So, the Olympic lifts require time and hard work. I do them because I love the sport and want to get better. I don’t just train for fitness – I actually like to compete in Olympic lifting. But there are plenty of times when I ask myself why do I do this to my body? If I decided to just train for overall fitness, I would probably stick with a steady diet of swings and presses, with some barbell squats thrown in on variety days. If I were training for general fitness, I doubt I could "afford" to spend the time and effort on the Olympic lifts. Swings would be just fine.
 
Mark,  would you say that most of these benefits also apply to double cleans?  I clean and jerk 2 24k bells.  In the article, he swings a 106 pound bell.  As far as the force production benefits, is there much of a difference between swings and cleans.  In RKC, Pavel says that if you repeat double cleans often enough, they will make you a man.
 
There is a huge difference in force production between cleans and swings.  When you look at double cleans you have to compare them to double swings, otherwise it is like looking at apples and monkeys.  Even looking at cleans and swings is like looking at apples and oranges.  Double cleans will make you a man, but not based on the force that is produced to do a double clean. 

The power output for cleans (single or double) is much less than swings with the same load.  Eccentrically, there is really no comparison - I commonly get people over 2xBW on swings, but I get excited when that number is 1.25xBW on the clean.  The eccentric phase (the drop) is much shorter, more compact, and a slightly different angle than the swing.  All of this combines to decrease the eccentric forces.

Double cleans will make you a man, but if your goal is power production they are not the best option.

 
 
If swings are apples and cleans are oranges, how will oranges benefit me in a way that is different than apples?
 
"The power output for cleans (single or double) is much less than swings with the same load.  Eccentrically, there is really no comparison – I commonly get people over 2xBW on swings, but I get excited when that number is 1.25xBW on the clean.  The eccentric phase (the drop) is much shorter, more compact, and a slightly different angle than the swing.  All of this combines to decrease the eccentric forces."

I don't understand.  It sounds like you are saying that people can swing twice bodyweight, but only clean 1.25 times bodyweight, because swings produce more power?  If swings require more force, then it seems that one could clean more than one could swing (i.e., the clean requires less force, so it can be done with heavier weight.)  It sounds like if a 200 pound person can swing 400, but can only clean 250, then a 250 pound clean is roughly equivalent to a 400 pound swing.   Clearly this is not what you mean, so I'm misunderstanding something.

How would cleaning 2 24k kettlebells relate to swinging a 48k kettlebell, in terms of the benefits described in this article?  Denisov has done a boatload of double cleans with 2x32k and pulled over 600 with very poor form and very little deadlift training.  Can an athlete who regularly cleans 2x24k for high reps expect to pull over 400 without specific deadlift training?  The article implies that swings will give this benefit.
 
Ladies and gents, to add to Brandon's post, one of the reasons cleans do not generate high forces eccentrically is it would be unsafe to do real overspeed eccentrics from the rack.  Unsafe for the elbows, possibly to the back if you do not direct the bells precisely.
Double cleans impose a high metabolic cost combined with repeated intense loading of the upper back and shoulders,  which makes them very effective for hypertrophy.  This is the time to go heavy.
A totally different exercise from the swing, as you can see,  when it comes to the training effect, in spite of some mechanical similarities.
 
To deadlift heavy you either have to 1) be inherently strong or 2) train for it.  I would guess Denisov was inherently strong and happend to do double cleans with 32kgs.

The double BW doesn't mean you can swing double body weight - not sure how realistic that even is.  It means there is force equal to double body weight that is generated.  To move a load the body has to generate more force than is present.  With cleans, since things are completely different the force generated is much less.  But that is just the nature of the clean - it doesn't mean you can't  clean as much as you can swing, it just means the force created isn't has high.
 
Steve,

I bring this up because I know you are heavily involved is GS. When I think about a hard style swing done by an experienced hardstyle practitioner vs a GS style swing done by an elite GS practitioner I have to think  there is a large difference  from a training effect stand point. I,  like you, wonder what type of carry over my KB training has to other non KB lifts ("Can an athlete who regularly cleans 2x24k for high reps expect to pull over 400 without specific deadlift training?)I would think the possible carry over would greatly depend on the intentional technique someone is choosing to  use in the given KB lift.
 
assuming the athlete was familiar with proper DL form and had some experience with it I would say that might be true. Although I think it might be more accurate if the kb athlete performed 2 x 24 kg cleans as explosively as possible for multiple sets.

If they are cleaning the bells with as little effort in each rep as possible and as small a hip hinge as possible then I would say no.Done HS with a HS lock at the top and as much eccentric overload as feasible, then yes.

 

with the deadlift too, SO much depends on if you are built for the lift. If you have a long torso and short legs deadlifting will be rough on you unless you sumo.
 
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