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Kettlebell GS vs Hardstyle Cleans and Snatches

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rebelshrug

rebelshrug

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I’ve got an idea of the differences, from another thread - but wondered if someone could go into more detail? And the pros and cons of each?

Thanks.
 
What Oscar said :) I might elaborate on that by saying this:

To get the GS "end" which is as many reps as possible in a given time frame without falling down and puking, the technique is designed to be as efficient as possible. That is done by distributing the load partly to the quads instead of concentrating it almost exclusively in the posterior chain. Also, as much as possible, momentum is captured and used to get the bell up. And the corkscrew/lean back drop is to soften the catch at the bottom to spare the hands.

The hardstyle tech is a means to train as much strength and conditioning in as short a time possible, make every phase of every rep as challenging as possible with the given weight.
 
A friend and I were deadlifting last week. He asked why I was getting so tense, even with the lighter weights, and not getting more reps. I told him that the reason I deadlift to train my body to generate a lot of tension, so when I train the deadlift, I focus on generating a lot of tension. If the goal was to get the most reps possible, then I would do it differently, but then I would be training strength endurance, not pure strength. Same sort of thing with HS vs GS. Different tools for different goals.
 
I have learned, the hard way, that maintaining max tension throughout any lift, at least for me, is very protective of injury. It seems to ensure that I maintain proper alignment and don't stress joint soft tissues that do not respond well to heavy loading...like cartilage
 
Everything is relative. Maybe I should say maximum tension possible for any position or movement. For me that is a cue to maintain glute and ab activation and also solid shoulder packing at very bottom of snatch and at top of lock out. I have deep neurological tendency or bad habit of relaxing or even completely shutting off those muscles right when they are most needed. The glute failure has nearly cost me a knee and I have very little cartilage left in both but one is much worse than the other. The ab/glute combo has cost me quite a few mild lumbar sprains at the bottom of swings and snatches. After a few days off the memory of the pain reminds me to be extra vigilant. The lack of shoulder packing at lock out causes wear and tear and pain in shoulder but also I have recently learned, seems to be a big factor in my never being able to get past about 7 pullups even when I trained them a lot for many months. It is almost as if those muscles have switches in them that shut them off in certain positions. I have spent that last couple months working almost exclusively on rewiring the neural connections using exercises I learned from PT with resistance bands. Finally, last couple weeks I have been doing relatively light deadlifts, squats and pullups. No ballistics yet because I can tell I do not really have the stability developed yet. MORE STRENGTH NEEDED...
 
GeoffreyLevens said:
Everything is relative. Maybe I should say maximum tension possible for any position or movement. For me that is a cue to maintain glute and ab activation and also solid shoulder packing at very bottom of snatch and at top of lock out. I have deep neurological tendency or bad habit of relaxing or even completely shutting off those muscles right when they are most needed.
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I would say the issue is not MAXIMUM tension possible for ANY position or movement, and more APPROPRIATE patterns of tension AND relaxation throughout the movement. As you testify, this can be challenging in a ballistic movement because everything happens fast and you can't really think your way through it. If you relax what needs to be tight when it needs to be tight, there will be problems.

Here's wishing you success in implementing strategies to train safely and productively.
 
It's hard to get a good answer to this question because the topic of GS vs hard style tends to be as divisive as politics. People on both sides tend to take an "us vs them" approach rather than just answering the simple question. As a kettlebell newbie I find it quite annoying.

The differences in form are easy to see, but the pros and cons of each is always being debated. The answer most often given is that hard style is about getting strong, GS is about getting as many reps as efficiently as possible. I suppose there's truth to that, but guys like Valery Fedorenko, Ivan Denisov, and Steve Cotter are anything but weak. In fact Steve started as a senior RKC instructor then "switched sides", if you will, after a trip to Russia. When he saw the numbers those guys were putting up he knew he'd never be able to achieve that with the methods he was using (his words, not mine). If you ever find old videos of him and compare them to his newer videos, you'll see his form is completely different now vs then. Even Pavel's old stuff is is a far cry from what's being taught now. It can be rather confusing at times!

I personally love the ballistic nature of hard style, and I'm glad I started with it, but I also love picking up a 24kg and getting into a nice rhythm of one-handed swings that feels like it can go on forever once your breathing and pendulum are dialed in. After I hit the simple goal in S&S I plan to delve into GS. That's probably the only way you can answer the question as to which is better suited for you, or the pros and cons of each.

Oh, and while I'm not a martial artist, my guess is that hard style would be better suited for fighters. But then again, Steve Cotter is a martial artist...
 
Was listening to a Steve Cotter podcast yesterday and whilst he was being diplomatic he was arguing that GS is the highest form of KB lifting. I train with a guy who is both an SFG and he has competed in GS at international level and has boxed for Ireland. He maintains that GS is "brutal" in terms of the commitment required to compete and the effect on the body. He has since left G.S and now trains predominantly with calisthenics.
In terms of where I'm at hardstyle suits my current goals etc and I personally like the emphasis on power and strength vs endurance. Totally respect the GS athletes, tough sport..
 
Steve W. thank you. You said it much better than I did. "Appropriate tension" were the words I was groping after. Progress is frustrating at times but since the patterns I am trying to rework have been there my whole life, it makes sense it would take some doing to change them.
 
I have learned few GS techniques at 3 different seminars, all were different.
I'll borrow Catherine Imes (first American to reach Master of Sport rank) quote, or paraphrase her's - In Hard Style we train muscles, in GS we train everything else except muscles.

I recognize that it's impossible to do such thing, however my understanding is breath, body structure, tendon ligament comes before muscles.

I'll leave it there.
 
Steve Mathews, who posts here under the name @Physical Culture, wrote a book on kettlebell sport. In it he makes what I would consider a very accurate observation that most people gravitate toward a "style" somewhere in between Pavel's hardstyle and GS. I made my own observation that going "true" hardstyle on every rep requires discipline to generate max force on each rep, but even then, fatigue will take over at some point. Eventually someone with a 24 kg will want to see just how many reps they can crank out, and once you get above 5, your body will want to be more efficient and, human being what it is, your hardstyle reps will become less "hard."

I let the implement and the weight dictate what "style" I use, if you can call it a style. I have developed a simple philosophy. Kettlebells are for strength endurance and power endurance, barbells are for maximum strength development and maximum power development. Heavier kettlebells fall somewhere in between, and that's a good thing because it fills in the gaps. This simple philosophy solves lots of other "issues" for me such as whether high-rep Olympic lifting as practiced by Crossfit. A polarizing issue that has lead many a keyboard warrior into battle. My answer: for high reps I use kettlebells. End of discussion.
 
They are both good and the people who do both of them are both awesome and should not view each other as adversaries or rivals. They are different though.

The one thing that got me with experimenting with both was that GS style programming is a mystery as where Hardstyle programming comes in a book that costs less than $20. GS movements also had a much steeper learning curve, which you should expect as it is a complicated sport with movement that is designed for maximum competitive effectiveness. Yeah, I wasn't going to be able to just learn that in my living room or front yard, however I was able to get pretty good at the hard style swing (and snatch but i don't do them very often) with zero instruction and just using Pavels books and videos of SFG trainers on YouTube and Instagram in a rather short period of time. GS may be a higher level of ballistic kettlebell lifting, but the learning curve takes it out of reach for a lot of people. I believe there is a quote in S&S where if a movement is difficult to learn or takes some long period of time to become proficient that its discarded and replace with something simpler to do. GS is a very high skill sport and that skill takes a lot of time and usually professional coaching to do.

One thing I like about Hard Style ballistics is that its 10-20 seconds of high power + high strength alactic followed up by aerobic recovery. That is my preferred way to train now. The A+A. That is also a big difference between the two schools of thought, one of them intentionally avoids glycotic training. When i was first learning and experimenting I was trying to do 5 minute sets with what I thought was GS style lifting (I do not want to make the claim I was doing it right, but I was doing what I thought GS style lifting to be) and the weight was manageable but it just left my body feeling fried and overly stressed out. Was I doing something wrong? Probably. I am probably doing A+A "more right" and for me that is better.
 
Riley O'Neill said:
The one thing that got me with experimenting with both was that GS style programming is a mystery as where Hardstyle programming comes in a book that costs less than $20.
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I smiled at this comment because it is so true.

Riley O'Neill said:
I was trying to do 5 minute sets with what I thought was GS style lifting (I do not want to make the claim I was doing it right, but I was doing what I thought GS style lifting to be) and the weight was manageable but it just left my body feeling fried and overly stressed out. Was I doing something wrong? Probably.
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This quote made me want to make a brief comment on this whole "divisiveness" issue. I'm not directing this at you Riley as I realize you're just relaying your experiences. There seems to be this misconception that GS is this nice and easy way of using a KB. Sure, if you're only doing a few reps. Go for 10 minutes and all of a sudden it's pretty dang hard.

HS and GS are like sprinting and distance running. In both you're using the same weight - your own body. But in sprinting you're looking to go as hard and fast as you can for a few seconds. I know nothing about sprint technique but the few times I've run "fast" I realized that all my muscles were tense. Can't produce maximum power if you're all loosey goosey with arms flailing akimbo. Rather your arms are actively pumping because that bit of momentum helps with speed. But guess what, the same is true in distance running. Ever seen an elite distance runner with flailing arms? Distance runners also need good posture, and their arms also "pump" but just not as much. There's still "tension" there just not as much - only as much as is needed to maintain an efficient running posture.

In your case Riley, I suspect you were a sprinter who tried to go for a distance run. Sprinting will build some aerobic conditioning and fitness as studies have shown. I have no doubt that doing lots of sets of hardstyle snatches, even if each set was only 5 reps, will likewise building some endurance. But I also have no doubt that a sprinter's first go at a distance run would be quite a shock. Keep in mind that endurance work tends to release lots of cortisol. All exercise releases cortisol but longer endurance sessions tend to release more. Cortisol is a stress hormone which is why you felt "stressed and fried." Add to this the fact that your technique may not have been perfect and the result was stress and that fried out feeling. You had a case of "workout hangover" which is a real thing that results from the body producing excessive amounts of cortisol.

Riley O'Neill said:
I am probably doing A+A "more right" and for me that is better.
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Do what's right for you and don't worry what others are doing. Why can't more people get this?
 
MikeTheBear said:
I smiled at this comment because it is so true.



All exercise releases cortisol but longer endurance sessions tend to release more. Cortisol is a stress hormone which is why you felt "stressed and fried." Add to this the fact that your technique may not have been perfect and the result was stress and that fried out feeling. You had a case of "workout hangover" which is a real thing that results from the body producing excessive amounts of cortisol.
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I assure you I wasn't doing it right lol. Probably not terrible for a dude in his front yard with no coaching but it was "not terrible" at best. Because of the learning curve of GS, or at least how I tried to figure it out, I sort of discarded it from my personal use. After reading S&S, I just did that as the learning curve was much easier. This is a huge upside to Hard Style, you don't have to think or guess or try to figure out what to do. Sure, the same can be done with GS with resources.
 
Just a to me amusing observation about GS being "this nice and easy way of using a KB." (Thanks for that Mike!) Awhile ago I watched a video of Ksenia Dedyukhina in a competition in 24 kg snatch. The entire time she looked smooth, effortless, perfect form. At the finish signal, she parked the bell and though she kept her "game face" on, she just stood there for several seconds, bent over leaning on the bell as though she could barely stand. Definitely a total capacity effort!
 
Folks, if I may, I'd like to delve a little deeper into the differences between our style and that typically used in girevoy sport.

First, while some things may be at nearly opposite ends of the muscle tension continuum, it's important to remember that, at StrongFirst, we talk about having a "volume control" on your efforts.
MikeTheBear said:
I made my own observation that going "true" hardstyle on every rep requires discipline to generate max force on each rep ...
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It's perfectly fine to dial one's volume control to 7 on a scale of 1-10 to perform a high volume of swings or snatches. More than just fine, it's desirable; more than desirable, it's necessary since no one can sustain a true maximum effort for very long.

Second, it's important to realize that a StrongFirst-style snatch, done with the volume control set at its minimum, is not appropriate for girevoy sport, and neither is a GS-style snatch, done with the volume cranked to maximum, appropriate for use in our programs. Each has a form suited to its goals and those forms different in important ways other than intensity. (Anyone who's trained both will know the above already from first-hand experience but I think it bears repeating in this context.)

Third, it's been observed that high-level GS athletes can often demonstrate impressive levels of strength. Yes, this is true, and high-level strength athletes can often demonstrate impressive levels of endurance simply because the tasks are so easy for them relative to their maximum strength. Neither of these should be considered endorsement or refutal of either approach. To every thing, there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven.

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
Second, it's important to realize that a StrongFirst-style snatch, done with the volume control set at its minimum, is not appropriate for girevoy sport, and neither is a GS-style snatch, done with the volume cranked to maximum, appropriate for use in our programs.
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Really? When I read this I was reminded of the following joke:

An engineer and a mathematician are in a room. At the end of the room is a table with the most wonderful food imaginable (original joke did not have food but I cleaned this up for the forum). Both were instructed to walk half the distance to the table. However, the condition was that once they walked half the distance they could then only walk half the distance from that point, then half the distance from the next point, and so on. The mathematician threw up his hands in frustration and said "This is pointless, I'll never reach the table," and he left the room in disgust. The engineer said "I'll be close enough for practical purposes."
 
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